Surrender / disband issue

[Arjuna]

No I haven't had the time to look at the other one Ade. I've been a very busy boy today. I'll see what I can do.

[adek670]

Arjuna,

Am I correct in saying that the surrender conditions have been changed in the latest build - again I am seeing overwhelming attacks against depleted units halted and even countered. Another screenshot below.

Ade

[dazkaz15]

No he messed with that a while ago now.
In these examples it seems to be them M8's that are causing the problems.
The other personnel are obviously just crewing it.
I wonder if the armour or some other stat for them in the ESTABS is not right?
I do agree with you that the surrender conditions are a bit out since he raised the surrender threshold a few patches back, which is why I am so interested in your findings.
Once again though it is a very hard thing to get right. What will work in some situations seams out in others.
Try playing as the Allies in this scenario, and you will probably get a better insight into it.

[Arjuna]

Ade, this is an armour v armour engagement. Is that right?

[adek670]

I have the stugs in on the Left and the Inf Bns engaging on the right - It does feel as though the M8s are causing the problem - I have seen the Stugs empty out their AP rounds with no change to the TOE of that unit - also Artillery rounds having no impact.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Reaper

I have the stugs in on the Left and the Inf Bns engaging on the right - It does feel as though the M8s are causing the problem - I have seen the Stugs empty out their AP rounds with no change to the TOE of that unit - also Artillery rounds having no impact.

I have been playing this scenario as well and can definitely confirm what Ade is saying.
These M8 recon units are "nuts"
The way they absorb punishment anyone would think they where tiger II's.
Actually I think even the tiger's fold before these things.
They also do have a profound effect on the playability of this Scenario. They completely hold up any advance, way more than in reasonable for this type of equipped unit. Like Ade said the other units completely burn through all their ammo trying to kill them, which then has a knock on effect on the whole scenario because the depots run out of ammo as well trying to keep up with the demand.

If you have time it needs investigating IMHO as it makes the scenario unplayable, in the long term.

[dazkaz15]

Thrown together a bit of a test for this.
It's not very scientific, but it was fun [;)]

[dazkaz15]

next

[dazkaz15]

next

[dazkaz15]

It took a tremendous amount of ammunition to achieve this.
Ill leave you to make your own conclusion, from these tests, as they are not very realistic, but where fun to do.

I think if you have time to play the scenario, you will see the problem first hand. I'm not sure if its the surrender threshold, or something in the ESTABS that is causing these recon units to be so stubborn. Their stubbornness is set to shaky in the scenario maker, which makes it even more bizarre.

[adek670]

Dazkaz,

Tremendous work to highlight this issue - I think what you have highlighted is definitely worthy of investigation - especially with an update looming.

Can't thanks you enough for looking into this.

Ade

[adek670]

Think Rambo was in WW2

[Arjuna]

So were is this scenario so I can check it out?

[adek670]

Hi arjuna,

Think he just edited the losheim gap scenario

Can you give it 5-10 mins on this one - and reassure me that these units are Working as Designed.

Ade

[Arjuna]

As I said I am going to need a save or a new scenario file. AFIK no one has sent me it yet.

[navwarcol]

Dave,
I think they are saying that the issue is the Losheim Gap scenario, or the estab file for the units in it.
It is one I have not tried to play actually so cannot comment on it, but I have also seen super M-8 units that take a lot of punishment from PzV Kpys and drag the fight out for a day or better as well..so I agree that maybe something is off on the M-8 in the estab, but will leave that diagnosis to you. I think above that Reaper and Daz both are saying that if you play that scenario you can tell them if it is WAD or something wrong with the stats, even without a savegame to send as they are just talking about a issue mostly in that scenario with its units.

[Arjuna]

Jim,

Fair enough but to be realistic I think my time can be better utilised if I have a save where the problem is demonstrative rather than having to spend a lot of time getting to the point where it is so. As you will see when we finally get you access to the Panther Dev Forums you will see a list a mile long in there of my things to do.

[dazkaz15]

I have sent some saves from the test I did.

It is an extremely unrealistic test, so it's probably hard to get a feel for how stubborn they are from it.
To get a real feel for it you need to play the scenario. I'm sure Ade will find much better examples as he plays his AAR through, that he can send you.

I used the tigers for my test just because I thought it would be fun. Obviously infantry have an even tougher time of taking out these bad boys with Panzerfaust even when very close in built up areas.
I'm off to Florida in a few hours, and have very needy, hyper excited grand children to contend with here at home at the moment, so probably won't get much more time to test for this before I leave.

[Remmes]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

I'm off to Florida in a few hours, and have very needy, hyper excited grand children to contend with here at home at the moment,

Enjoy it!

[Arjuna]

Yes thanks for the saves Daz. I've got them. Have a good time in Florida.[:)]