CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: samurai023
In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.
In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.
On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.
On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.
After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.
On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).
Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.
very nice, thanks. so does column mean army or corps?
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
column means corps.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
thanks, what were the strengths of the irregular forces and were their units formed into something higher than battalionORIGINAL: lion_of_judah
ORIGINAL: samurai023
In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.
In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.
On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.
On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.
After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.
On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).
Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.
very nice, thanks. so does column mean army or corps?
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.
thanks very much, now this is a silly question but where are the command ops forum... NEVER mind, i have found it but thanks for pointing me in this direction
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: samurai023
In 1946, it was named Northeast Democratic United Army, with 5 columns (1,2,3,4,6), 1 brigade and 3 divisions. The total number of main force was 120,000.
In may 1947, Northeast Democratic United Army had 9 columns (1~10 except 5th) and begun strategic offensive. The total number of is around 460,000.
On Jan 1st 1948, it was renamed as Northeast People's Liberation Army. In Feb, it had 12 (1~12) columns.
On Aug 14th 1948, it became Northeast Field Army and had 12 infantry columns, 15 independent divisions, 1 artillery column, 1 railway column, 3 cavalry divisions and 1 tank regiment, totaled 1,030,000.
After Liao-Shen campaign, on Nov 13 1948, its 12 columns were renamed as 38~49 corps, each having 3 divisions. KMP 60th corps became its 50th corps.
On March 11 1949, it was renamed as 4th Field Army. Although names as "army", it was actually army group. It had 4 "BingTuan(in Chinese)", which was equivalent to army, as follws:
12nd Army: 40th(118,119,120,153 Div), 45th(133,134,135,158 Div), 46th(136,137,138,159 Div) corps;
13rd Army: 38th(112,113,114,151 Div), 47th(139,140,141,160 Div), 49th(142,143,144,162 Div) corps;
14th Army: 39th(115,116,117,152 Div), 41st(121,122,123,154 Div), 42nd(124,125,126, 155 Div) corps;
15th Army: 43rd(127,128,129,156 Div), 44th(130,131,132,157 Div), 48th(142,143,144,161 Div) corps and another column called "Liang(means two)-Guang" (GuangDong and GuangXi provinces).
Later on, only 3 divisions were attached to each corps.
doesn't appear at first the CPC had enough men to fight in Manchuria and protect their capital at "Yen'an". is this where their irregular forces took up the lack of trained regular main force units. As of right now I have the CPC starting first, but maybe I should have the ROC begin first. thank you very much, you have helped tremendously in regards to these OOB's
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Ask in the command Ops forum section about communist and nationalist OOB information sources. It's a very knowledgeable and helpful group that can pull information sources out of their posteriors. I'll lay odds they can site some good info sources.
NEVER mind, i found it, but thanks for pointing me in this direction
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
Irregular forces were mainly militia, most of which gradually became regular force. That is the reason why PLA grew that fast.
CPC sent in total 110,000 troops to Manchuria in the autunm of 1945. 6,000 were from Eighth Route Army's ShanDong military district; 30,000 from New Fourth Army in the Yangzi River area; the rest from military districts of ShaanXi and ShanXi and Heibei provinces.
At that time, Manchuri was the most industrilized ares in China. So CPC definitely wanted to occupy it before KMT could take any actions. Stalin also told Mao to do so. According to what I know, Mao at first planned to choose one major city in Manchuria as capital of his party.
I am not sure if Mao really need many troops to protect Yen'an. PLA was very good at guerilla warfare. In 1947, when Zongnan HU led 200,000 army to attach Yen'an. Mao left Yen'an and in some sense used himself as bait to attract HU's army. During 3 months chasing, HU's army was defeated many times by Dehuai PENG's Northwest Field Army but still could not find Mao.
CPC sent in total 110,000 troops to Manchuria in the autunm of 1945. 6,000 were from Eighth Route Army's ShanDong military district; 30,000 from New Fourth Army in the Yangzi River area; the rest from military districts of ShaanXi and ShanXi and Heibei provinces.
At that time, Manchuri was the most industrilized ares in China. So CPC definitely wanted to occupy it before KMT could take any actions. Stalin also told Mao to do so. According to what I know, Mao at first planned to choose one major city in Manchuria as capital of his party.
I am not sure if Mao really need many troops to protect Yen'an. PLA was very good at guerilla warfare. In 1947, when Zongnan HU led 200,000 army to attach Yen'an. Mao left Yen'an and in some sense used himself as bait to attract HU's army. During 3 months chasing, HU's army was defeated many times by Dehuai PENG's Northwest Field Army but still could not find Mao.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: samurai023
Irregular forces were mainly militia, most of which gradually became regular force. That is the reason why PLA grew that fast.
CPC sent in total 110,000 troops to Manchuria in the autunm of 1945. 6,000 were from Eighth Route Army's ShanDong military district; 30,000 from New Fourth Army in the Yangzi River area; the rest from military districts of ShaanXi and ShanXi and Heibei provinces.
At that time, Manchuri was the most industrilized ares in China. So CPC definitely wanted to occupy it before KMT could take any actions. Stalin also told Mao to do so. According to what I know, Mao at first planned to choose one major city in Manchuria as capital of his party.
I am not sure if Mao really need many troops to protect Yen'an. PLA was very good at guerilla warfare. In 1947, when Zongnan HU led 200,000 army to attach Yen'an. Mao left Yen'an and in some sense used himself as bait to attract HU's army. During 3 months chasing, HU's army was defeated many times by Dehuai PENG's Northwest Field Army but still could not find Mao.
thanks a lot for the information. The Nationalist setup is off a map I found showing positions as of 1946 showing KMT forces and their position in China and Manchuria. Nationalist forces controlling southern Manchuria and CPC forces controlling the northern portion of Manchuria.
the 100,000 troops the CPC sent to Manchuria, this just left the 20,000 men to defend Yen'an or more if you include irregular forces. I plan on adding irregular forces as well for the Communist side. Another question, were the irregular forces brigade or division size formations or smaller.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
I know that the KMT had tanks, but I do not know how many, what kind or if they were formed into Brigades or just attached to the infantry Divisions. I haven't attached any to the infantry Divisions, but have given the KMT 2 light tank brigades level 1. The mechanized brigades have given them level 2 tanks. For the CPC forces, I know that they had tanks but I do not know how many or if they were attached to infantry Divisions or formed into Brigades/Regiments. I did read that the CPC received tanks from the Soviet Union and from capturing them during battles with the KMT but were not able to use them until they were trained by KMT deserters....
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
the following events I have imported to this are as follows: all these events were programmed by ernie and so thanks are once again given.
manpower event
event where regimes wakeup when attacked
manpower event
event where regimes wakeup when attacked
RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.
The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.
The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.
Favoritism is alive and well here.
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
The formation of irregular forces could be regiment, brigade or division, I think.
I found a summary of weapons in Nov 1947 from a Chinese forum. The poster claimed the data was from History of the Liberation War (Civil War), Volume 3, page 241-242. Take Manchuria as an example,
Northeast Field Army,Rifle or pistol 132507,Machine gun 13007,Gun 1968,grenade discharger 2010,Tank 32.
Northeast Military District Troop,Rifle or pistol 132304,Machine gun 3789,Gun 306(?),grenade discharger 1113.
Compared with
Northwest Field Army,Rifle or pistol 19608,Machine gun 1626,Gun 300,grenade discharger 236。
If these are correct, the irregular force in Manchuria was really strong.
Among those troops sent to Manchuria, only 10,000 are from areas close to Yen'an. So most of those troops were not supposed to defend Yen'an.
I found a summary of weapons in Nov 1947 from a Chinese forum. The poster claimed the data was from History of the Liberation War (Civil War), Volume 3, page 241-242. Take Manchuria as an example,
Northeast Field Army,Rifle or pistol 132507,Machine gun 13007,Gun 1968,grenade discharger 2010,Tank 32.
Northeast Military District Troop,Rifle or pistol 132304,Machine gun 3789,Gun 306(?),grenade discharger 1113.
Compared with
Northwest Field Army,Rifle or pistol 19608,Machine gun 1626,Gun 300,grenade discharger 236。
If these are correct, the irregular force in Manchuria was really strong.
Among those troops sent to Manchuria, only 10,000 are from areas close to Yen'an. So most of those troops were not supposed to defend Yen'an.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: Twotribes
You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.
The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.
yea, I was aware but do not know of anyway to do it this way. I think the level 1 light tank picture I used is of a Japanese tank and the light gun level 1 is a picture of KMT troops with a Japanese infantry gun. I was thinking about increasing PP costs for certain items to twice their current cost as a way to simulate this. Level 3 infantry and other items show us equipment. That said, I do like doing hypothetical into these conflicts as a what if sort of thing.
I also did read where the Warlords did side either with the Nationalist Government or the CPC. I think I would have to add another regime to the list and that regime would then be a warlord faction, but it may be doable.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: Twotribes
You are aware that the Soviets delivered to the Communist Chinese the arms ammunition and materials they got from 700000 Japanese troops that surrendered to them? Stalin agreed not to provide arms to the Communists so instead delivered all the captured materials.
The US withdrew all support for Chang Ki Shek in 46 due to his refusal to allow the Communists to share in his Government and this was not changed until late 48 when Marshal toured China and realized just how stupid the US had been.
you are also correct, America dropped the ball big time in my opinion in regards to the Chinese civil war. We should have been supporting the KMT from the get go, with not only economic aid but military aid as well instead of doing as we did. My opinion, if China had not have fallen to the communists then the Korean war or maybe even the Vietnam war may not have happened, and maybe North Korea would be unified now under the South.
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
Just curious about how you determine the movement capacity of PLA. Although they barely had trucks, especially in the early period of the war, they were very good at marching by foot. And more importantly, they did not rely on well-constructed road. Perhaps you would like to lower the off-road movement penalty for the CPC side.
As far as I know, PLA usually chose narrow meandering footpath for concealment purpose. Consequently, one of their best tactics was to sneak into enemy's defense area then launched attack from the rear or flank areas of enemy. While most non-elite KMT troops, on the other hand, had very low moral and were very likely to flee in such situation. I am not familiar with Advanced Tactics Series, so I am wondering whether is it possible to stimulate such effect?
As far as I know, PLA usually chose narrow meandering footpath for concealment purpose. Consequently, one of their best tactics was to sneak into enemy's defense area then launched attack from the rear or flank areas of enemy. While most non-elite KMT troops, on the other hand, had very low moral and were very likely to flee in such situation. I am not familiar with Advanced Tactics Series, so I am wondering whether is it possible to stimulate such effect?
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: samurai023
Just curious about how you determine the movement capacity of PLA. Although they barely had trucks, especially in the early period of the war, they were very good at marching by foot. And more importantly, they did not rely on well-constructed road. Perhaps you would like to lower the off-road movement penalty for the CPC side.
As far as I know, PLA usually chose narrow meandering footpath for concealment purpose. Consequently, one of their best tactics was to sneak into enemy's defense area then launched attack from the rear or flank areas of enemy. While most non-elite KMT troops, on the other hand, had very low moral and were very likely to flee in such situation. I am not familiar with Advanced Tactics Series, so I am wondering whether is it possible to stimulate such effect?
I think what your asking can be done in regards to non elite KMT troops running via event programming, and use it with level 1 units. As for the Movement factor for the Communist side, I don't know unless a whole new movement factor is made just for them. I will have to ask ernie and see what he says and if this can be done. I appreciate your help with this, very much. thanks
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
You are welcome. I am a Chinese and am very happy to be helpful if someone wants to know about the war in this theater.
About air force, I did a little research on that. What I found is that in 1946, an aviation academy was founded in Manchuria with the help of some Japanese pilots. But People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force was formally founded on Nov 11 1949. So I believe that PLA did not have active air force before the war was ending. They may obtain some fighters or bombers after the "three decisive campaigns". But after that, there was no need to use air force to defeat KMT. However, PLA did have some anti-air regiments.
As for the KMT part. Since PLA did not have air force, the only use of KMT's fighters was firing with their machine guns in the air. Moreover, due to the lack of experienced higher order military officers, bombers were not as effective as they were supposed to be. So unlike other main theaters around the world, air forces played an extremely limited role in the Chinese Civil War.
About air force, I did a little research on that. What I found is that in 1946, an aviation academy was founded in Manchuria with the help of some Japanese pilots. But People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force was formally founded on Nov 11 1949. So I believe that PLA did not have active air force before the war was ending. They may obtain some fighters or bombers after the "three decisive campaigns". But after that, there was no need to use air force to defeat KMT. However, PLA did have some anti-air regiments.
As for the KMT part. Since PLA did not have air force, the only use of KMT's fighters was firing with their machine guns in the air. Moreover, due to the lack of experienced higher order military officers, bombers were not as effective as they were supposed to be. So unlike other main theaters around the world, air forces played an extremely limited role in the Chinese Civil War.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
ORIGINAL: samurai023
You are welcome. I am a Chinese and am very happy to be helpful if someone wants to know about the war in this theater.
About air force, I did a little research on that. What I found is that in 1946, an aviation academy was founded in Manchuria with the help of some Japanese pilots. But People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force was formally founded on Nov 11 1949. So I believe that PLA did not have active air force before the war was ending. They may obtain some fighters or bombers after the "three decisive campaigns". But after that, there was no need to use air force to defeat KMT. However, PLA did have some anti-air regiments.
As for the KMT part. Since PLA did not have air force, the only use of KMT's fighters was firing with their machine guns in the air. Moreover, due to the lack of experienced higher order military officers, bombers were not as effective as they were supposed to be. So unlike other main theaters around the world, air forces played an extremely limited role in the Chinese Civil War.
thanks for the information, very much appreciated it. i was curious about the airforce for the PLA, as a article I read had said that the Soviets did fly for the CPC during the civil war in a volunteer status, that the Communists did not have any pilots at this time. We'll guess I will have to delete the 2 air units of Soviet volunteers then.
I love history and this part of history has always been one of my favorite study areas, just have not been able to learn a lot about it. Have read a few books here and there, but would love to delve deeper into this as I find it fascinating.
- lion_of_judah
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RE: CHINESE CIVIL WAR 1946-49
CPC Southern Front. Consists of 2 Columns (Corps) each with 3 Infantry Divisions and 1 Brigade. I also added several CPC Irregular Brigades, which represent Communist Guerrillas


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