Barge Surface Combat Victory?

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:58 am

Well my opponent could interpret it differently, but I was supplying a small island outpost(IJN) with just 2 barges when it ran into a 14 PT boat TF. I had to watch the animation to see how this played out but it just said "TFs break contact" . well this could mean: 1) PT boat commander knew he had been suckered into this patrol by his commander so he got out of there, 2)The PT commander was so afraid the barges would hurt his boats he hauled *** . Has anyone seen these two mighty boat classes exchange fire?

HawaiiFive-O · Post by **HawaiiFive-O** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:21 am

I was the opponent, and it was a little deflating. I had hoped that my PT's might close the range and destroy his barges, but it didn't happen.

I read on these boards that PT's are effective against barges? Lord knows they aren't too effective against anything else.

It was Rainy, so that might have had something to do with it, the barges slipped away in a squall...

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:39 am

What were the PT Boat TF commander's ratings?

HawaiiFive-O · Post by **HawaiiFive-O** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:38 am

Commander L. Gamble

Leadership: 62
Inspiration: 71

Pretty good stats.

Erik Rutins · Post by **Erik Rutins** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:42 am

I've seen PT Boats engage barges and sink a few. I've also had them put torpedos into several cruisers and one battleships. It's easy to dismiss them, but they can make a difference.

I usually use a combination of subs and if available, fighter bombers and PT-boats / destroyers to catch barge TFs and destroy them. When barges are the only viable resupply method for a particular base, putting effort into cutting the barge link is worthwhile.

Regards,

- Erik

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:45 am

How about aggressiveness?

That is the most relavant stat. If he is aggressive, then it makes no sense.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:45 am

My experience has been (both to the delight and dismay of my opponents) that PT boats are really wild cards. One day the Duke is in charge, the next day, it's the Duck. Some days, you eat the bear; some days, the bear eats you.

HawaiiFive-O · Post by **HawaiiFive-O** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 11:53 am

"CDR L. Gamble is known to be a very promising and aggressive officer. He is best qualified as a surface fleet commander."

It's not that big of a deal. I'll keep trying to nail those barges. They are out of fighter bomber range, so the PTs are all I've got.

I have sent cruiser task forces against Drex's barges in the past, to get their experience up. But I don't want to fall into a pattern he can take advantage of. I thought the PT's would be a good change of pace.

And one thing, there is NO WAY I will send my subs against those barges. I have lost several subs out right to barge fire, and innumerable subs sent back to Pearl to those shallow drafted menaces.

Apollo11 · Post by **Apollo11** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:21 pm

Hi all,

Originally posted by Erik Rutins
I've seen PT Boats engage barges and sink a few. I've also had them put torpedos into several cruisers and one battleships. It's easy to dismiss them, but they can make a difference.

I usually use a combination of subs and if available, fighter bombers and PT-boats / destroyers to catch barge TFs and destroy them. When barges are the only viable resupply method for a particular base, putting effort into cutting the barge link is worthwhile.

Regards,

- Erik

Absolutely best method for killing barges is air power.

#1
Just put some fighters (with enough experience) on "Sweep" and set them to 100ft and
that's it.

#2
The other way is to have good units on "Naval Search". They will then do the dreadful
sight->identify->attack->sink ship routine which nothing can stop (even dedicated
LRCAP over barge, or any other, TF can't stop this - I reported this a s a bug long ago
but other people didn't think it was bug).

In my game with Oleg (I was IJN) I was loosing 4-5 barges per turn when he employed
the above tactics...

Leo "Apollo11"

Erik Rutins · Post by **Erik Rutins** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:35 pm

#1
Just put some fighters (with enough experience) on "Sweep" and set them to 100ft and
that's it.

Yes, it's great if you have fighters in range, though I use Naval Attack 100 feet to avoid other entanglements. A squadron of FBs will normally get 2-3 barges per day given good weather.

#2
The other way is to have good units on "Naval Search". They will then do the dreadful
sight->identify->attack->sink ship routine which nothing can stop (even dedicated
LRCAP over barge, or any other, TF can't stop this - I reported this a s a bug long ago
but other people didn't think it was bug).

Aircraft on Naval Search are absolutely affected by CAP and flak as well, it's just more rare than usual since it's easy to miss or fail to spot a single plane. As barges have minimal flak, CAP is the only option. If you have CAP in range to protect your barges though, then fast transport or transport is usually a better way to supply. However, try setting the CAP altitude to match the naval searches (usually 6000 feet), or station the CAP at staggered altitudes if you have multiple groups.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik Rutins · Post by **Erik Rutins** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:38 pm

Originally posted by pasternakski
My experience has been (both to the delight and dismay of my opponents) that PT boats are really wild cards. One day the Duke is in charge, the next day, it's the Duck. Some days, you eat the bear; some days, the bear eats you.

Yes, I completely agree with this. Because of their relatively short weapon range and limited endurance, it's very much a toss of the dice. However, it's a chance worth taking IMHO as they are only 1 VP each.

As Mogami commented to me after seeing my PT boat tactics, "They were expendable.". This after I torpedoed a cruiser or two and lost 10-12 PTs in exchange.... a rate that is to the Allies' advantage.

Regards,

- Erik

rcwkent · Post by **rcwkent** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:18 pm

What a surprize when this fleet sub ran into this Banzai barge!!!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/08/42

Weather: Overcast

Sub attack near Russell Islands at 35,39

Japanese Ships
AG 105, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS Peto, Shell hits 5, on fire

Flt damage was 27 after the attack.

Apollo11 · Post by **Apollo11** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:46 pm

Hi all,

Originally posted by Erik Rutins

Aircraft on Naval Search are absolutely affected by CAP and flak as well, it's just more rare than usual since it's easy to miss or fail to spot a single plane. As barges have minimal flak, CAP is the only option. If you have CAP in range to protect your barges though, then fast transport or transport is usually a better way to supply. However, try setting the CAP altitude to match the naval searches (usually 6000 feet), or station the CAP at staggered altitudes if you have multiple groups.

In my PBEM (and my single player H2H tests) I never ever intercepted the
dreaded "Naval Search" attack routine (i.e. where single aircraft would do the
sight->identify->attack).

I tried LRCAP but to no avail (I varied the altitudes as well and in my single
player H2H tests I even had the altitudes 100% matched)...

The aircraft with experienced crews (and Hudson's are extremely known to be
that way after some time - and they have the range as well) will attack with
100% impunity using "Naval Search" attack routine.

Please note that I had cases where my MSW was 1 HEX from Rabaul and fully
rested, high morale 27 plane elite Zero squadron was doing LRCAP over it
(again please note that this is just 1 HEX from their base) but still the
single Hudson come and sink my valuable MSW.

There was no way of stopping them...

((

IMHO, this is a bug.

Why?

Because if you have LRCAP over some TF and enemy does the normal "Naval
Attack" your LRCAP would surely intercept and kill all/some of the attacker
planes.

The only difference is that in "Naval Search" only one aircraft attacks but,
in my mind, there should be no difference from example I gave above (i.e.
regular "Naval Attack") because it would just be easier to kill that one
attacker than several of them.

Also I don't think that full squadron of LRCAP would not miss that single
enemy aircraft on Naval Search" because they are protecting the TF and flying
directly over it and thus the wast area of 30nm HEX doesn't play any role
here.

Erik, can you please check the code is everything is OK with this (I strongly
believe that there is something very wrong here)...

Thanks in advance!

Leo "Apollo11"

Mr.Frag · Post by **Mr.Frag** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 10:00 pm

I'm telling you that it is those GODLY Hudsons that are the problem! They all have no fear, care nothing about moral, fly under any weather conditions.

Apollo11 · Post by **Apollo11** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:57 pm

Shameless BUMP...