Vehicle pathing...they always seem to find the nearest building!

KG Erwin · Post by **KG Erwin** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 7:22 am

Is this something you guys have found extremely annoying? When you give any vehicle unit a point A-point B command, say 5 or 6 hexes, and there's a friendly unit and a building in the path, invariably the vehicle unit plows right into the nearest building to avoid any interfering with a hex occupied by friendly units, and it subsequently becomes immobilized. I suppose the lesson is to move ALL vehicle units one hex at a time, BUT, this tendency is still maddening.

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 7:29 am

Originally posted by KG Erwin:
Is this something you guys have found extremely annoying? When you give any vehicle unit a point A-point B command, say 5 or 6 hexes, and there's a friendly unit and a building in the path, invariably the vehicle unit plows right into the nearest building to avoid any interfering with a hex occupied by friendly units, and it subsequently becomes immobilized. I suppose the lesson is to move ALL vehicle units one hex at a time, BUT, this tendency is still maddening.

I wholeheartedly agree KG. It seems that either the SPWAW drivers either greatly overestimate the capabilities of the vehicles, or else they all attended the Keystone Kops/3 Stooges school of driving. This is something that can make a scenario much more difficult that it should be. City fights are especially prone to this and more times than not, I end up swearing. I would agree that this is an area that needs work. Either that, or keep the vehicle drivers from drinking on the job.

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USMCGrunt

-When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

RobertMc · Post by **RobertMc** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:53 am

The solution to this might be to increase the movement points needed for an AFV or other vehicle to enter a building hex. Then the AI likely wouldn't do it so much (or, rather, the AI would be *unable* to do it so much).
Or make building hexes off-limits to AFVs or other vehicles, but some folks enjoy crashing into the buildings, so...

x6ftundx_slith · Post by **x6ftundx_slith** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:12 pm

i agree... i must loose 2-3 vehicles every scenario becuase of this... even when im slow and move them 1 hex at a time sometimes they still end up in a building (becuase of the map)... i would love to see this fixed... maybe you could make vehicle repair better and faster that would counteract the building?

Commando Solo

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:27 pm

I'd like to see a pop-up box stating 'Are you sure you want to drive into this building and immobilize the vehicle?' which you could answer with a yes/no just like the opfire. To the AI, buildings should be off-limit.. and generally, movement points required to crash into a building with a tank should increase.

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:34 pm

Yeah, it still happens frequently, if youre
in the heat of the battle, although you know the danger.

So take care of the "hex info" pop out box and go 1-2, 2-3....

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RockinHarry

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:41 pm

Yes,this is really annoying.
It should be fixed some way.
The AI do this also when it's retreating a vehicle;it happened to me yesterday:it chose a way of retreat which leaded my tank just inside a wooden building(immobilized,of course..).

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Fred "Resisti" Duties
If you cannot defeat your enemy,join him.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 7:13 pm

Annouing as it is, here is why I think it happens; this engine is from SP3 originally, in SP#, as you know, the citys/villages were able to be driven through, ie, the buildings had no effect on the vehicle, and vice/versa. Well, it got fixed, quite a few times, and maybe I'm just lucky, but this isn't happening to me! It took some doing to be able to have the buildings as an obstacle, now each and every time we do something to the executeable, there's a chance the change will upset something somewhere else, I'm sure that Mike is trying to do something about this, if at all possible.

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 7:50 pm

It's weird, I've seen vehicles behave pretty smart avoiding buildings...

There may be two things which make path-finding look bad:

1. Invisible buildings which are left when you delete a multi-hex building.

2. Retreating tanks don't avoid buildings.

Take a look at this:

When I clicked where the cursor is, every halftrack used the middle opening even when they had to go through other units.

In fact, every where I clicked, no matter how far, I could not get them to go through buildings. Even when I ordered the lowest halftrack to go to 2 hexes left from where it is now, it used the opening, then went around the whole city block. Pretty neat!

[This message has been edited by Kharan (edited February 01, 2001).]

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:15 pm

Agreed. To get rid of the problems when changing versions, new patches etc.. a warning when you try to enter a building with a vehicle would be very nice

. This way bad pathfinding won't be a problem any more.

It is not a problem most of the time. Sometimes it happens though. Never if its a clean path. If there are other units on the road, increasing the movement cost, and other ways around are also "high-movement cost hexes" the vehicle attempts to take a very smart short-cut and rams the building. Using 'move-all' also seem to give worse pathfinding.

Annoying sometimes, but actually a quite small thing. It works as long you are careful. But.. hunt for perfection..

Kharan, in your example, try wooden buildings and slower mech units than halftracks. Also try 'move-all'.

Originally posted by Warhorse:
Annouing as it is, here is why I think it happens; this engine is from SP3 originally, in SP#, as you know, the citys/villages were able to be driven through, ie, the buildings had no effect on the vehicle, and vice/versa. Well, it got fixed, quite a few times, and maybe I'm just lucky, but this isn't happening to me! It took some doing to be able to have the buildings as an obstacle, now each and every time we do something to the executeable, there's a chance the change will upset something somewhere else, I'm sure that Mike is trying to do something about this, if at all possible.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:29 pm

Originally posted by Fredde:
Kharan, in your example, try wooden buildings and slower mech units than halftracks. Also try 'move-all'.

Yeah, how far units will go to avoid buildings seems to be a function of their available move points. Wood buildings compared to stone buildings didn't make much of a difference, but the required moves are only 8 to 12 respectively.

x6ftundx_slith · Post by **x6ftundx_slith** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 9:02 pm

DID YOU KNOW ITS JUST NOT VEHICLES?

I was fighting a battle with a bridge in it, when I was crossing the bridge some of the units went into boats instead of crossing the bridge. I even tried to do it 1 hex at a time and even then some did it. The bridge was clear so it couldn't be an obsticle that it was moving around. I guess only MARS knows the answer

Commando Solo

Dagobert · Post by **Dagobert** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 9:59 pm

I like to think of it as a bit of unintended realism. I'm on the eighth battle or so of utr(the one after the Sig line) and it happened to me at least three times in the first two battles. I guess my boys we're just excited to have tanks.
'Hey Harvey watch where you're going!'
'Shut up and let me drive numbnuts!'
WHAM!
I blame their suicidal tendancy to engage German armor head-on on inexperience as well

.
I wish the 'hex contours' we're a little clearer but I'm not complaining. much.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 10:01 pm

Gentlemen!

Let's deal with this in detail.

In the latest version that you will be getting, 4.6 or 5.0, I don't see this happening at all, except with amphibious vehicles.

But if you use caution, guiding your tanks or vehicles by moving them one hex at a time through a populated (building) area, you will never have this happen.

This should be a standard rule, I feel for any commander.

As for the rivers and bridges, the AI does seem a little dense when it comes to crossing on bridges. I don't know why this is, but I have seen the same thing.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 10:11 pm

Originally posted by Kharan:
Yeah, how far units will go to avoid buildings seems to be a function of their available move points. Wood buildings compared to stone buildings didn't make much of a difference, but the required moves are only 8 to 12 respectively.

Just to be clearer, when I replaced the halftracks with tanks, half of the time they rammed into buildings.

Ones in the left corners of the building area got out, but ones in the right corners rammed through the buildings.

I'm sure this happens with v4.6 also. So the pathfinding algorithm definitely needs a little work, and it needs to be optimized for tanks (15-30 moves), not just for halftracks (40 moves).

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Feb 01, 2001 11:30 pm

I almost never have a problem with running into buildings. I would suggest that perhaps the problems people have may be heightened by having a huge amount of units per map width, or perhaps the building density is so bad that it affects pathing dramatically, as opposed to the random stuff I play in campaigns which has maybe 20 buildings tops.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Feb 02, 2001 12:16 am

Both very good and valid points, Charles22.

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Feb 02, 2001 1:00 am

I'm still playing 4.3b and I never have this problem.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Fri Feb 02, 2001 3:51 am

Although frustrating, I think that the chance of immobilization of vehicles adds an interesting aspect to the game. However, i must say that i wish that immobilized vehicles, at least some of the time, maintained the ability to fire weapons. I may be completely wrong, but it appears that all immobilized vehicles are restricted from firing. For example, if a tank becomes immobilized due to tread damage, isnt it possible that it could still retain the ability to fire weapons?

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Fri Feb 02, 2001 4:24 am

Hi everybody

Immo-vehicles can shoot. They can get immobilized by driving too fast thru the town and crashing into some building. As it happens in real life. This is not annoying, -its nice touch of mistakes everybody does when under pressure. I think this so. Annoying is that I can't drive Tiger in to the building, hold fire and escape after killing first two Shermans. This could be done somehow, because I have dropped my mouth several times when watching Halfies driving in to the building, gettin immo and after few turns its ready to drive away. Think about that.

How to create pilbox? Drive cheap tank in to the building and let it be immo

It can be done by filling the roads with overloading hexes. Tank gets cover status while sitting in the remains of the house...

mosh.