Relative Lack of Vietnam Era Games

[Icedawg]

I was just perusing the Matrix "Products" page and was struck by the complete lack of games from the Vietnam Era. Other companies also offer relatively few games dealing with this American disaster. Is this shortage simply an artifact of the politically unpopular nature of that war? Or is it perhaps due to the temporal proximity and associated pains of lost family members/friends?

Any ideas?

Personally, I would be interested in playing a game centered on Vietnam at any level - from tactical on up to grand strategic. There would be lots of relatively unique features to such a game (air lifting via chopper, political considerations to avoid a larger regional/global war, avoiding civilian casualties while dealing with counter insurgency, simultaneous symmetrical and asymmetrical warfare . . . .). It would really make for an interesting change of pace.

[janh]

Unfortunately I have not come across many V-E games so far either. A few rather sub-average helicopter simulations, A2A combat being woven in as parts of other games (Chuck Yeagers air combat, or Jane's Fighter Anthology), but several ground and infantry combat simulations since the C64 era. However, I only know of a single one strategy level computer game, and none on the tactical level. I think ASL has scenarios on that time frame, though. The strategy game was published sometime in the mid-90s, if I recall correctly. I think I have seen it recently somewhere in the abandonware corner. If I recall the title, I will let you know. It had exactly those components you mention including political level factors. Unfortunately AI was not that good.

[Shellshock]

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

[joey]

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?

Basically, for the US, a game of whack-a-mole on a very large and expensive scale. North Vietnamese units can always regroup and be back at some to fight the struggle for however many years it takes. They fought the Chinese and the French for a lot longer.

[joey]

I think whack-a-mole is a good way to put it. Not only did you have NVA troops, but you also had VC units. These units did not always were uniforms or in any way told you they were the enemy. To add another layer to the simulations would be the rules of engagement laid down by Washington. Difficult to win let alone simulate.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?

Maybe that's it, but if we can put a man on the moon . . . .

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

ORIGINAL: joey

I think this war would be very difficult to simulate. There wasn't really a front line. Battles were not fought establish or move a front line, but instead, were fought to attrit the enemy. Where the enemy was, was not always known. Who the enemy was, was also not always known. It was guerilla warfare at its finest. How does a game simulate that?

Maybe that's it, but if we can put a man on the moon . . . .

Yes, but note that we haven't set foot back on the moon in forty years.

Maybe that explains the dearth of Vietnam War games. Lack of interest.

Either that or the war was a giant conspiracy shot in a studio. [:D]

[czert2]

well it will be realy interesibng to have from this era at tactical/stategical lvl. And i will love to have some political stupidities...er i mean rules from washington how to wage war (and you pay political poits to ease them .
This war should be easily won by us if politicans keep they nose from military operations and military was using more brain how to fight. Vwery nice show how to sucesfulyl wage combat operation was task force G used by frogs in earlier war. Task force G was composed by WWII german veterans (yes including ss members).

[Yaab]

As a Pole, with no emotional attachment to the Vietnam war, I would like to play a Vietnam war game to better understand the conflict. I guess the war is still an emotional scar on American psyche and there are few developers willing to create Vietnam wargames.

[jeffk3510]

There may be some mods for John Tiller's Campaign Series, but I am not 100% sure on that. It is a fun tactical level game that does a decent job of modeling land combat. There isn't anything but "off may" artillery from ships in some scenarios, so the naval aspect is almost no existent.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I remember playing some Vietnam scenarios in Norm Kogers's TOAW II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Operational_Art_of_War

a quite interesting 90s, operational level, hexagonal view game

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I also remember, barely, playing Sid Meier's Conflict in Vietnam; this in the 80s

I was young and didn't quite fully understand the game, but I remember having lots of fun in "Dien Bien Phu" scenario kicking the French

[geofflambert]

The Vietnam War and for that matter our (US) Afghani conflict are very difficult to simulate and not much like war as we wargamers know it. But there is a striking resemblance to the American Revolutionary War and we don't see many wargames for that either.

[geofflambert]

Similar conflicts include the partisan war in the Pripyat during WWII as well as in Jugoslavia, our (US) little adventure with colonialism in the Phillipines and various British Empire sticky wickets.

[catwhoorg]

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

I remember playing that against my brother, many many moons ago.
The small scenarios were quite fun.
The whole campaign well we got a little way through and it just wasn't being fun for either of us.

[21pzr]

John Tiller's Squad Battles series of tactical games includes 2 Vietnam titles: "Vietnam" and "Tour of Duty". I have not played these, and am not that experienced with the Squad Battles series, but JT generally puts out a good game.

[nashvillen]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I can think of only one title that ever dealt with the war on the strategic level.

I remember playing that against my brother, many many moons ago.
The small scenarios were quite fun.
The whole campaign well we got a little way through and it just wasn't being fun for either of us.

The way this handles the pacification of the locals is interesting. I would have liked to played it against someone, as trying solitaire wasn't much fun. Still have it on my shelf.

[Cribtop]

My friends and I were hard core board gamers. We opened the Vietnam game and it was overwhelming. I was willing to give it a shot, my buddies asked to play something simpler, like Empires in Arms.

I did have a friend who ran some very interesting tactical scenarios with miniatures. He played the VC/NVA and used hidden movement while the US and Allied forces marched or landed under the control of the other players. Really good stuff, especially the scenario where a village search for caches of rice found an NVA company supported by a tank!

[fcharton]

VG Vietnam is a pretty good game, but a very unusual design... Basically, you had an extreme version the "sequential operation" system, which is a hallmark of many VG games (including Pacific War), which broke the sequence of play we're all familiar with. The short scenarios are a lot of fun. The campaign is involved, but very interesting.

As others have said, there are decent vietnam scenarios in tactical games. I have fond memories of SPI Patrol's Vietnam scenarios, which worked very well because they were very asymmetric, I suspect the other games in the series (sniper, commando) might work too. You also have decent (french, and spanish) games about the French Indochina war (look up past copies of Vae Victis and Alea).

As for computer games, I suspect the market for serious wargames, and the audience of this forum, explains the lack of them. We're an old bunch, and this is in living memory... not sure everyone wants to "game" this.

Francois