Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[PastrySquirrel]

I think most of us would be pleased with a more realistic op tempo, some sort of political conditions more reflective of reality and other changes to make the game more historically plausible if not necessarily accurate per se. But that's a very tall order which is unlikely to be fulfilled in this iteration of WitE. Given that, I would be happy to have game that is merely balanced and enjoyable to play competitively without being forced to resort to loads of house rules or cumbersome morale bonuses and penalties. And I say that as someone who gave the Germans a 5% boost in my latest server game. (I was too chicken to reduce my own Soviet morale by 5% )

[mmarquo]

Pelton reflects:

[/quote]

Only MT and myself are able to win.

[/quote]

Where is he trolling for opponents? Where did he find the opponents for his last several AARs?

No disrespect to Griefhead and MatsuHiroshi; they may be the best players in the world but they do not post much. Maybe the silent, deadly types?

[8|]

[Shupov]

Here is another data point - Saper (Axis) vs. Shupov (Soviet)with new opening but no German rail into Romania:

Start of 1941 Blizzard
Germans doing better than historical - Moscow holds but Leningrad and Rostov taken. Voronezh taken on last turn before blizzard.
3.0 Million casualties (1.86 Million captured) to 465 K for Germans
Soviet strength at 5.48 Million
Armament production at 61,000
No house rules
Non-Random weather

Germans will undoubtedly have a strong 1942 offensive.

[mmarquo]

Flaviusx reflects: "and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on."

They pee in downtown Leningrad/Rostov and in the outskirts of Stalingrad before winter, 1941 and yet they moan like men struggling with the dysuria of gonorrhea.

[:-]

[Shupov]

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.

Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.

[Ron]

Purely anecdotal so take it for what it's worth. I dropped the game quite some time ago as the 'warts' were too many to overlook. However, a long time opponent talked me into buying the Lost Battles expansion and we started a new GC again. Neither one of us are great players though I am usually the stronger in most instances. Our previous game ended mid-late '42 as I recall due to mutual real life constraints etc, the situation did not favour either side at the time with the Germans only capturing Leningrad out of the big three.

As the Germans in the latest game, I knew something was up by about turn 3 as the Russian defenders were considerably more resiliant than I remembered, requiring in many cases deliberate attacks to displace. The Russian ant units previously had a tendency to retreat and not rout, but now it seemed most units were simply not routing. By turn 8, when we put it on hold and likely to be abandoned, I had run into a wall of high CV Russian defenders pretty much all along the front. What's worse this early, and really too much, are the Russian Reserve activations which require a huge German committiment to overcome, if at all. The thing is this is probably the tipping point to the game as we both know the Russian will only continue to get more numerous, and stronger and stronger. No need to even worry about the 'horrendous' Blizzard rules to come!

I did read the Readme and changes, but the significance of the morale changes did not really sink in until playing with them. The game always slightly favored the Russians in many aspects but this is over the top imo and is to the detriment of any head-head play unless the German is a master player versus a less experienced Russian. I don't regret the money spent though I do the time invested. It seems this games is a design in conflict with so many questionable, untested and unfinished aspects. Oh well.

[PastrySquirrel]

I'm currently facing dik41 & waiting for the final snow turn. He's captured Leningrad through brute force and a couple of mistakes on my part, but has only threatened D&Z towns during the recent snow. The Dniepr line held a very long time until AG South crossed it and punched north instead of east. 4-5 mobile divisions are cut off and probably doomed after the snow push on D&Z. He controls Kharkov and has bulled his way forward within 10 hexes of Moscow, but now the blizzard hits.

He's played pretty conservatively, going mostly for big, slow encircling punches rather than quick jabs. While easy to escape, that has served to grind down many of my defending divisions, but after a standard Lvov turn 1 he has only been able to isolate and destroy about three armies worth of troops, almost all in Leningrad. For the most part I've been able to roll with his punches, although I've felt a bit panicked at times having to shovel reserves into the front lines as fast as they become available. I don't have as much of a hammer ready for the blizzard as I'd like, but I do have 6 million men at the end of Nov. '41. GHC's grinding offensive has also worn down their panzers brutally; many are 7-8 CV shells of their former selves.

It seems that unless the Germans can severely unbalance the Russians from the very beginning and maintain so much pressure that they're unable to ever develop a proper defense in depth, the morale results in a '42 style slugfest in '41.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flaviusx reflects: "and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on."

They pee in downtown Leningrad/Rostov and in the outskirts of Stalingrad before winter, 1941 and yet they moan like men struggling with the dysuria of gonorrhea.

[:-]

Shhhhhh. No facts please.

[morvael]

As I said earlier, unrealistic '42 can't be compensated by uber '41.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, I am not interested in "winning" the game. I am interested in making this into something resembling the actual historical war in the east. What it is now, is a fantasy on a number of levels. It's profoundly unsatisfying.

I can't play 1941 anymore. It just stops being something I can believe in on turn 1. So for me all this stuff about Soviet morale being too high is incredibly myopic. There's a whole forest of issues out there, and here we have a bunch of German players finding the biggest redwood to pee on.

You been peeing on a redwood yourself, just on the other side of the tree.

Pot calling the kettle black again is nothing new.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Shupov

Sapper and Bomazz did this opening Flaviusx and they both lost.

Pelton,

I'm not aware Saper lost as Axis with this opening. I know of two games, one against TDV where he won after inflicting 4.5 million Soviet losses before blizzard and my own which is still in progress.

tm.asp?m=3207771

2 times by sappers first post.

[Peltonx]

[quote][quote]ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton reflects:



Only MT and myself are able to win.



Where is he trolling for opponents? Where did he find the opponents for his last several AARs?

No disrespect to Griefhead and MatsuHiroshi; they may be the best players in the world but they do not post much. Maybe the silent, deadly types?

[8|]

[quote]


And you have played who in the last 12 months?

Like Flaviusx all talk?

How do you know so much when you are only running your mouth?

I did not troll for anyone. 2 asked to play me because they are bored of winning so easly as SHC.

[Michael T]

Flavius you might think the game is crap but lots of people don't think its too bad. All it needs is some tweaks to keep it going till WITE 2.0 comes along. Failing that at least we can adjust the morale settings ourselves. But an official fix would be nice. Personally I think day by day less players will be willing to play as German with the stock morale settings. IMO the stock morale settings equate to an 'I win' button for Russia as it stands.

(NB my opinions are based on games between evenly matched players)

[Flaviusx]

I don't think the game is crap, except for for PBEM in 1941. It's still very playable for other things and for solo.

But the 1941 campaign game went off the rails a long time ago. Nor do I see it being susceptible to tweaks. It needs a fresh start.

[JamesM]

So the probability is that we will have to wait until WitE 2 to have this issue resolved?

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: jamesm

So the probability is that we will have to wait until WitE 2 to have this issue resolved?

Not necessarily. See Joel's post on page 1. Nothing will happen in July due to other commitments but if people come to a consensus here and there is an easy fix then it will be addressed long before WitE 2.

Edit - We're talking about Soviet morale only here; not other issues like the Lvov pocket, Soviet players running away, blizzard effects, etc.

[carlkay58]

So to bring this discussion back to focus we are talking about the change in formula based in:

Rule 9.1.1

If a units morale is below 50, and it is 10 or more hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

We wish to change the formula so it is not set at 50 but rather:

1) National Morale for the unit

- or -

2) 50 or National Morale for the unit, whichever is least.

The current formula makes the National Morale = 50 for all purposes if National Morale is < 50. This effects the Axis Allies and Soviet Union.

Option 1 would make it easier for nations with National Morale > 50 recover morale if it drops under NM. This will allow ALL nations to have their units recover to NM.

Option 2 would make 50 the maximum of fast recovery and if your NM > 50 then you have a slow time to raise it up to NM. This would require more time for nations with high NM to reach their NM, and in some cases probably not easily.

Note that these options and 9.1.1 ONLY cover units that are more than 10 hexes away from the enemy - in other words units that are in strategic reserve for training and rebuilding.

[Walloc]

To add to Carl. As such ur correct but there is more to it then that as it is currently, only looking at russian side for first part of discussion.
AS NM is 50 from starters for russian and dropping 1 per month side u can atm get to near 50 fast as per the bugfixed moral gain rules within 10 hexes. Only changing the beyond 10 hex rules wont change much any thing unless u also lower NM.

But as u say less u also do some thing too the beyond 10 hex rule(9.1.1), lets say we set NM at 45, it will still get to 45 fast as per post bugfix rules(its teh same rules that allow german units to get up to 70 NM fast). As i see if u dont change the 9.1.1 rule is just a question of getting to 45 possibly within 10 hexes and then spend 2 turns on refit beyond 10 hexes per 9.1.1 to get to 50. Ofc this solution is harder than now, but only marginally so depending on skill on german side.

So yes. As u say some rules applying to both sides limiting both axis minors and rusian side is in order in regards to 9.1.1. U just cant IMO seperate the 2 issues. Changing 9.1.1 has to be done in conjunction with what to do with NM in 1941 for russians and how do u want the NM to go up from 1941 on and how do the +10 NM for guards figur in. If NM is to be the "new" limit. As a change 9.1.1 will impact on that, if u compare to how its been so far. No need for half solutions IMO, these things interact.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Blubel]

I would be for the second option provided by carlkay and raising the hex minimum to at least 20. Otherwise it is not your strategic reserve but your third line of defence.
Or delete the rule altogether. I was never quite sure what it was supposed to represent in real life. After all, you would think that the NM was what the nation was able to achieve with training. If you want more, you would have to get combat experience.

[timmyab]

Option 1 is fine.
I like the idea of being able to train units up above NM but the rules need reworking if they're going to make any sense.
I'd make it that all units can train up to NM no problem, but as a unit goes above NM it gets progressively more difficult so that five points above NM would take months to build.
On the whole it's probably simpler to just do away with training above NM, there's enough stuff to worry about already.