Pirates! Arrrgggg!

[Tammeroth]

Greetings,

I've been playing DW Shadows since release, and have applied each patch as it became available. At some point (1.9.0.6 or 7 maybe?) it seemed as though pirates suddenly became more numerous and much more difficult to deal with.

I find myself--as well as the AI empires--simply swarmed/overwhelmed by pirates, to the point where it just seems hopelessly absurd. My bases, when I can actually manage to construct one, are instantly incinerated, as are my mining stations. The same is true--or maybe even worse, if that's possible--of AI empires.

For instance in my current game (10x10, 1400 stars, normal difficulty, restless galaxy, no pirate respawn, pirates at many, all story line events enabled) the year is 2143, and there are 17 pirate factions that I know about. These 17 factions have a combined 171 space ports, 158 controlled colonies, 4590 ships, and have destroyed /captured 7556/1861 bases. Again, these are just the pirates that I know of in game.

In my previous game, in the year 2170, there were 27 pirate factions that I knew of. At that time I had in excess of 350 ships in the air which did *nothing* except attack pirate SPs, and they were still popping up in my own SOI faster than I could destroy them, to say nothing of the pirate parties that were occurring all over AI space (Despite my best efforts to take out pirate SPs even in AI space.). I also had 5 transport fleets whose only job was to invade and take out criminal network planets. I never once had a war with a normal empire. Rather the entire game was consumed solely by attention to pirates, until the Shak arrived and basically destroyed a low population, under developed, ill defended galaxy filled with steaming piles of maggot infested dung.

Oh, heh, I couldn't afford the maintenance on all those ships, I resorted to conjuring up credits via the editor.

I'm certainly not the best player, but neither do I consider myself a complete nOOb, and it seems to me like pirates are currently out of control. Are other folks actually playing with pirates set to many, and having success without resorting to magic?

[MisadventuresVG]

Seriously, you should of just seen what I just watched on my screen.

I was laying siege to a pirate occupied world when a single pirate ship from another faction with half the firepower of my fleet appeared and randomly started to annihilate my fleet one ship at a time while they sat there doing sod all. On top of that when I surrounded the ship, manually it jumps out only to recharge its shields and pops in a few seconds later to finish the job. All this while the planet did nothing, then all of a sudden spawned and I mean spawned a pirate constructor, NOT BUILT, but appears out of thin air and immediately hyperjumps off. I am not being unreasonable when I say that this was somewhat BULL for the AI. I don't mind a challenge but on normal this type of attack and insta-build ability is over-powered.

I have been doing fairly well up to now focusing on the destruction of one faction which at last count had only 3 ships left. Next thing I knew they are being seemingly aided by every other pirate faction in the galaxy who then stretched my fleets abilities to cope to breaking point.

[turtlefang]

Pirates are simply brutal, especially if you start prewarp.

My whole strategy centers on maximizing anti-pirate approach.

1) Heavily armed mining stations
2) Heavily armed spaceports that are protected by a fleet while being built
3) Garrisons delivered to a planet right after a colony ship lands
4) Heavily armed constructors to defend themselves and what they are building
5) Two or three dedicated pirate hunting fleets
6) Extra large frigates optimized for capturing pirates - and a lot of them
7) Colony ships escorted by a fleet with a troop transport to make sure it arrives
8) One or two defensive fleets
9) And at the homeworld, defensive bases

I didn't build any of this stuff before the current expansion but since the pirate infestation, it is either that, or suffer major losses and setbacks. And it requires a "controlled" expansion rather than just expand as fast as possible.

[Darkspire]

To be honest it has fast become the best set of games so far IMHO the pirates are really aggressive, have plenty of ships and are a real challenge, playing on prewarp always used to be a bit a slow at the start, now it it is so much more involved, you need to know how to navigate the tech tree, how to increase population, basically you need to know how to manipulate your empire and then some to keep anywhere near surviving, I have over 16 pirate factions, 9 are right near my home system and nearly all of them have at least 50-100+ ships and are constantly trying to raid or destroy my mines and colonies, have had to change the focus of research three times so far, now I have got a hold on the defense the raiders are getting crushed more or less as they land and the mines are more geared up to defend, helped with the increased defense of the newly designed escorts, frigates and destroyers so I can now concentrate more on offense and start designing ships to counter attack and thin there numbers out a bit, if and when I manage that the other empires on the map should start becoming a problem. Bring it on [:D]

Darkspire

[Tammeroth]

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

Pirates are simply brutal, especially if you start prewarp.

My whole strategy centers on maximizing anti-pirate approach.

1) Heavily armed mining stations
2) Heavily armed spaceports that are protected by a fleet while being built
3) Garrisons delivered to a planet right after a colony ship lands
4) Heavily armed constructors to defend themselves and what they are building
5) Two or three dedicated pirate hunting fleets
6) Extra large frigates optimized for capturing pirates - and a lot of them
7) Colony ships escorted by a fleet with a troop transport to make sure it arrives
8) One or two defensive fleets
9) And at the homeworld, defensive bases

I didn't build any of this stuff before the current expansion but since the pirate infestation, it is either that, or suffer major losses and setbacks. And it requires a "controlled" expansion rather than just expand as fast as possible.

Thanks for the reply. These ideas all make perfect sense, and I too attempt a "maximizing anti-pirate approach".

This approach is, however, easier said than done. For instance, I send an escorted colony ship to a colony planet, and they are ambushed by a pirate fleet and wiped out while in route. Or they arrive at destination, successfully colonize, and a pirate fleet comes and wipes them out before the SP is built. Or, the SP is built, and a pirate fleet wipes out the SP almost instantly. Etc, etc, etc.

Early on, I don't see how it is possible--or at least affordable--to build an SP that can withstand an assault by 15 pirate cruisers, or a fleet that can protect that SP...? And if it isn't possible to build such a base "early on", how does one survive long enough to reach a point that is, well, later on?

I consider my mining stations to be reasonably heavily armed (usually something like 15 shields, 20-30 armor, 10 missiles and 5 beams), and my constructors at least survivable (something like 10 shields, 20 armor, 5 missiles and 5 beams), yet marauding pirate fleets frequently rampage through my systems taking out everything in sight. *sigh*

I don't know how to have the constructors, resources or credits needed to rebuild SPs and MSs over and over again.

How heavily armed are your SPs, MSs and constructors during the first, say, 30 years or so?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't believe that my difficulties are a result of improper strategy (Well, at least not entirely.), but rather a result of simply being swarmed. I mean, no amount of strategy can successfully deal with being overwhelmed and annihilated, can it? (Obviously, the strat is to *not* be overwhelmed and annihilated, but then the problem becomes how to accomplish that.)

In my current game, the year is 2147. There is a pirate faction with at minimum 32 SPs. I say "at minimum" because the list of their bases takes up all of the space on their empire info screen (There is no way to scroll down in order to see the rest of their info.) They routinely pummel the snot out of me, and I really don't see any "strategic" way out of this, esp since the AI empires just feed them. There are also several other pirates who are almost as strong, and a bunch of other pirates who I find formidable.

Oh well, the "Alliance of Hope" (the name of my human empire) is rapidly becoming the "Alliance of Hopelessness". LOL.

P.S. My point to the "whine" is that I believe pirates are too powerful, too soon, and that they face no meaningful opposition.

[Tammeroth]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

To be honest it has fast become the best set of games so far IMHO the pirates are really aggressive, have plenty of ships and are a real challenge, playing on prewarp always used to be a bit a slow at the start, now it it is so much more involved, you need to know how to navigate the tech tree, how to increase population, basically you need to know how to manipulate your empire and then some to keep anywhere near surviving, I have over 16 pirate factions, 9 are right near my home system and nearly all of them have at least 50-100+ ships and are constantly trying to raid or destroy my mines and colonies, have had to change the focus of research three times so far, now I have got a hold on the defense the raiders are getting crushed more or less as they land and the mines are more geared up to defend, helped with the increased defense of the newly designed escorts, frigates and destroyers so I can now concentrate more on offense and start designing ships to counter attack and thin there numbers out a bit, if and when I manage that the other empires on the map should start becoming a problem. Bring it on [:D]

Darkspire

(Bold text added by me)

In my experience, if and when you manage that, the other empires will either mostly no longer exist (Having been converted to pirate colonies), or be so weakend by pirates that they are complete push overs.

I would be interested in hearing what happens, though [:)]

[Darkspire]

Think that you have also to consider what your game setup is, I play on 10x10 - 15x15 400 star maps, and always with the max amount of empires, I have noticed that the pirates get much stronger with fewer empires, although I get a large percentage near me at game start I never succumb to there heinous demands of cash, I just ride the wave. I manual design everything except the private ships, I leave those till mid game when the hydrogen reactors become available, I leave my mines on a basic setup, missiles and armor usually till I can get Deucalios shields and Quantam reactors, with the added power I also add torpedoes and start fitting in my tech planning robot repair for the ships and area effect weapons for the mines, I fit every type of area effect weapon I can on mines and if I am lucky enough to find it the Devastator Pulse, the ships need the robot repairs because of being in the area of effect when the mine goes on the defense, only experience with the tech tree, ship designs and the general flow of a game will give you the insight needed to get things to run in parallel, you learn to judge how long things take and can tweak other areas to reinforce the weakness in others. I have been playing DW for over two years and Shadows for me is a real breath of fresh air, the game has become much more challenging and much more enjoyable with the addition of the pirate factions.

Darkspire

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Tammeroth

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

To be honest it has fast become the best set of games so far IMHO the pirates are really aggressive, have plenty of ships and are a real challenge, playing on prewarp always used to be a bit a slow at the start, now it it is so much more involved, you need to know how to navigate the tech tree, how to increase population, basically you need to know how to manipulate your empire and then some to keep anywhere near surviving, I have over 16 pirate factions, 9 are right near my home system and nearly all of them have at least 50-100+ ships and are constantly trying to raid or destroy my mines and colonies, have had to change the focus of research three times so far, now I have got a hold on the defense the raiders are getting crushed more or less as they land and the mines are more geared up to defend, helped with the increased defense of the newly designed escorts, frigates and destroyers so I can now concentrate more on offense and start designing ships to counter attack and thin there numbers out a bit, if and when I manage that the other empires on the map should start becoming a problem. Bring it on [:D]

Darkspire

(Bold text added by me)

In my experience, if and when you manage that, the other empires will either mostly no longer exist (Having been converted to pirate colonies), or be so weakend by pirates that they are complete push overs.

I would be interested in hearing what happens, though [:)]

Now well into mid game and the other empires are doing okay, I have wiped out three or four of them and most of the bases that were causing problems (image 1, Im the dark purple empire), as you can see there are now a few pirate planet based colonies as well, the AI empires pay the pirates and the pirates get stronger, you also have to take into account that the pirates supply missing resources so wiping them out without thought can really screw resource supplies, that's why the base in the SE of my empire is still alive in my radius sphere, it is supplying some new colonies, as soon as they are self sufficient I have a 10 capital ship fleet that will go pay them a visit [;)] My mines are a few designs from optimum (image 2) I have plasma torpedoes ready but am waiting for a other bits so I make the final designs, like the gravtic weapons pulse, the one that creates black holes, my mines are on Mk6 while my ships are on Mk12+, I only upgrade the mine designs and facilities when I have a significant advancement in tech to add and I also have a good enough resource stock pile to accommodate the retrofit, at present I have about 300+ mines and that hits hard when I make a design upgrade.

Darkspire

[Jeeves]

Your mines are far too expensive, put just the basic design plus weapons enough to defend until help arrives. They should never cost more than 3k maintenance otherwise the resources are not enough to pay for the maintenance let alone the build cost. Devastator pulse indeed LOL!

Lonnie Courtney Clay
ps - The warp inhibitor that stops ships from warping to a location is well worth putting on every base once you get the tech - Lever 7 construction Hyperjump Disruption, works against pirates as well as enemies.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Jeeves

Your mines are far too expensive, put just the basic design plus weapons enough to defend until help arrives. They should never cost more than 3k maintenance otherwise the resources are not enough to pay for the maintenance let alone the build cost. Devastator pulse indeed LOL!

Lonnie Courtney Clay
ps - The warp inhibitor that stops ships from warping to a location is well worth putting on every base once you get the tech - Lever 7 construction Hyperjump Disruption, works against pirates as well as enemies.

Basic design? LOL! So that would stand up against an attack fleet of 15+ ships against the mine while help arrives? LOL! The private sector is swimming in cash if you manage the economy of your empire properly, there is absolutely no dent in there cash reserves and once the Mk6 mines become predominant the cost is paid back by not having to rebuild a mine every time a pirate attack fleet tries to take one of my mines out LOL! The Devastator pulse is useless on any spaceport or ship because of the damage it causes, put it on a mine and it becomes a very useful weapon and as long as your ships all have robotic repairs and decent shields then there is no problem using them LOL! And as I said the design is about two or three revisions away from optimum, the warp inhibitor is not needed, the ships have those fitted as they can move the field of effect, a stationery mine can not LOL!

Darkspire

[Lucian]

I cant remember the last time I had a decent war against another standard empire. Nowadays its all Pirates, Pirates and more pirates dominating everything and pretty much all my attention goes to combating them.

Although I agree that the early game should be pirate dominated, the mid to late game should be about conflicts between expanding empires, not ultra powerful pirates crushing everything in their path. At the moment that simply isn't the case. In short, I agree that pirates are just insanely over powered.

[Icemania]

I follow a similar approach as to what has been suggested by Turtlefang and Darkspire. Early on I pay some protection but keep it to a minimum (cancel ASAP) and crash research wherever possible in key areas to enable stronger defences. I'm also a custom design everything junkie.

I quite like the way it is and do not consider Pirates overpowered at all. They've made the game far more Eventful but sometimes yes some Persistence is required, and it forces you to use many features of the game.

Lucian, maybe set some of the Empires to be ahead of you (e.g. Young, Tech Level 2/3) which will help the other Empires manage Pirates better and give you something to chase mid-game.

Challenging hey Darkspire? I thought nothing was challenging, just a different way of playing [:)]

[Darkspire]

Challenging hey Darkspire? I thought nothing was challenging, just a different way of playing

The game mechanics and AI are not challenging, but the pirates certainly are in Shadows [:D]

Darkspire

[Lucian]

Lucian, maybe set some of the Empires to be ahead of you (e.g. Young, Tech Level 2/3) which will help the other Empires manage Pirates better and give you something to chase mid-game.

That might well be an effective way to get standard empires back into the game, but pretty well underscores the idea that pirates ARE INDEED overpowered if that's what you have to do in order to make the game behave the way its supposed to.

What we need is a slider for pirates in the setup screen, something like...

very easy pirates .......................................................... very hard pirates.

Because currently it doesn't matter whether you choose few or many pirates, you inevitably end up with insanely powerful, difficult pirates. It should be possible to play the game without that if you wish without disabling them completely. For example if I want to play a game where pirates are only a minor annoyance, I currently don't have that option. Its pirates from hell or nothing.

Games which always devolve into a glorified tower defense against overwhelming swarms of pirates lack variety and become boring very quickly. Something like the above setup could provide many different types of gameplay to suit the tastes of different types of players.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Lucian

Lucian, maybe set some of the Empires to be ahead of you (e.g. Young, Tech Level 2/3) which will help the other Empires manage Pirates better and give you something to chase mid-game.

That might well be an effective way to get standard empires back into the game, but pretty well underscores the idea that pirates ARE INDEED overpowered if that's what you have to do in order to make the game behave the way its supposed to.

What we need is a slider for pirates in the setup screen, something like...

very easy pirates .......................................................... very hard pirates.

Because currently it doesn't matter whether you choose few or many pirates, you inevitably end up with insanely powerful, difficult pirates. It should be possible to play the game without that if you wish without disabling them completely. For example if I want to play a game where pirates are only a minor annoyance, I currently don't have that option. Its pirates from hell or nothing.

Games which always devolve into a glorified tower defense against overwhelming swarms of pirates lack variety and become boring very quickly. Something like the above setup could provide many different types of gameplay to suit the tastes of different types of players.

Don't think you understood what I posted earlier, if you want the pirates in less quantity and power, than reduce the amount of independents (there food as it were), increase the amount of empires, reduce the map size and obviously reduce the amount of pirates to suit. If your still playing in six months and have a good few games under your belt you will look back at this post, laugh and realize how much this new aspect of DW brought to the table and how much you do not want them toned down.

Darkspire

[Lucian]

I fully understand the idea that its possible to adjust starting game parameters to compensate for the fact that pirates are too powerful under a default setup. Icemania's suggestion (more advanced empires at start up) would probably work too, as would several others.

Unfortunately it doesn't negate the fact that pirates actually ARE too powerful. I would like to see a variable difficulty slider for pirates rather than be forced to choose various quick-fix work arounds which make compromises that I really don't want to make. I mean what if I want many independents AND weak pirates in my game? It just isn't possible at the moment.

In Legends, pirates were only a minor annoyance, but independents could still be plentiful and weak empires could still grow strong. In Shadows, its now impossible to re-create that experience because pirates are locked at one difficulty ..... hard. That really needs to be changed.

If we could directly vary the difficulty of pirates (perhaps by globally adjusting their income or something) then all players would be happy to choose the type of pirates they want without having to compromise by selecting specialized game setups in order to minimize a perceived problem.

Of course if you don't see a problem then just keep the difficulty slider set at hard and have fun. I suspect that the Many vs Few pirate slider was meant to *be* that difficulty setting, but it simply doesn't work as intended.

If your still playing in six months and have a good few games under your belt you will look back at this post, laugh and realize how much this new aspect of DW brought to the table and how much you do not want them toned down.

I think you might be misunderstanding my stance on this. I actually quite like the tough pirates, just not all the time, every single game. I think that like many of the other adjustable parameters in this game, pirates should have a difficulty slider that actually works so that we can experience different types of games when we play, not the same sort of thing repeated ad nauseum.

[Tammeroth]

Are some of you saying that early on (Whatever "early on" is. I dunno, warp bubble 'till 2135 maybe?) you are able to build fleets, bases and mining stations that are able to defend against absolutely relentless pirate attacks by fleets of 10-15-20 destroyers/cruisers/CS/carriers? Enough so that by 2140-2150 you are so well established that you are able handle 15-20 pirate fleets each of which have ships numbering in the 100s and even thousands?

Or, are you saying that you aren't seeing this same level of pirate activity?

If you are saying the former, then I tip my hat to you, and I need to head back to my strategy drawing board (Although I just really don't see how it can be done, but I guess that it must be possible.)

If you are seeing the latter, then perhaps I need to revisit my game settings. For instance by reducing the number of stars and Independents, by turning off story lines, etc, although doing these things would make the game less interesting to me.

[turtlefang]

Not sure what to tell you.

I play with average world setting for me, excellent for other races, 15x15 with maximum number of stars, average pirates (I have found that pirates are actually stronger fewer pirates). Research is on normal and a one of the story lines are off (can't remember which ones).

It's about 35 years into the game. The Ack have 44 colonies, a few other races have 10 or so, and I have about 25 or so.

There are LOT of pirate factions around, and even with heavily armed mining stations and space ports, I lose one about every four or five turns. My fleets are currently seven defensive fleets of 10 450 pt DDs, A scout CA, and a TT. I have 3 battlecruiser fleets with 20 heavy CAs and one Scout CA each; two battleship fleets with 20 capital ships and 1 CA each. I also have 50 Frigates not assigned to a task force to patrol the area. Max ship size for me is currently 500 pts.

Pirate fleets show up on a regular basis, trash an area until you run them off. And the largest pirate faction has over 100 ships. I haven't been able to kill a clan yet. And I have about 6 to 7 colonies that I haven't been able to get a space port up - had many killed at these colonies.

Just take it carefully. Kill your money under control, pay the pirates off as needed, and get some decent weapons. Slow, careful expansion is the rule. And you will suffer a lot of setbacks.

Pirates are just nasty and you have to take a very deliberate approach. And be targeted in your research.

One last thing - my first space port is a small port home design with more reactors, living space and 15 to 20 labs each for weapons, energy, and high tech. This will jump start your research and helps a lot. And while it makes a juicy target, doesn't take advantage of any bonus research areas, it means I only have to defend my homeworld early to keep my research going. As I get more technology, I upgrade it. At some point, I will retrofit to a large spaceport - and I make sure my home space port has 21 constructions bays and 30 docking bays. That way, I can pump out as many ships (or retrofit them) fast and get them out of there fast.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Lucian

Lucian, maybe set some of the Empires to be ahead of you (e.g. Young, Tech Level 2/3) which will help the other Empires manage Pirates better and give you something to chase mid-game.

That might well be an effective way to get standard empires back into the game, but pretty well underscores the idea that pirates ARE INDEED overpowered if that's what you have to do in order to make the game behave the way its supposed to.

What we need is a slider for pirates in the setup screen, something like...

very easy pirates .......................................................... very hard pirates.

Because currently it doesn't matter whether you choose few or many pirates, you inevitably end up with insanely powerful, difficult pirates. It should be possible to play the game without that if you wish without disabling them completely. For example if I want to play a game where pirates are only a minor annoyance, I currently don't have that option. Its pirates from hell or nothing.

Games which always devolve into a glorified tower defense against overwhelming swarms of pirates lack variety and become boring very quickly. Something like the above setup could provide many different types of gameplay to suit the tastes of different types of players.

Lucian, I agree on the slider suggestion, recognising each of us have different preferences. Personally I'd always play very hard pirates and do not consider the current situation to be overwhelming or to be a tower defense game ... on any setting.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Tammeroth

Are some of you saying that early on (Whatever "early on" is. I dunno, warp bubble 'till 2135 maybe?) you are able to build fleets, bases and mining stations that are able to defend against absolutely relentless pirate attacks by fleets of 10-15-20 destroyers/cruisers/CS/carriers? Enough so that by 2140-2150 you are so well established that you are able handle 15-20 pirate fleets each of which have ships numbering in the 100s and even thousands?

Or, are you saying that you aren't seeing this same level of pirate activity?

If you are saying the former, then I tip my hat to you, and I need to head back to my strategy drawing board (Although I just really don't see how it can be done, but I guess that it must be possible.)

If you are seeing the latter, then perhaps I need to revisit my game settings. For instance by reducing the number of stars and Independents, by turning off story lines, etc, although doing these things would make the game less interesting to me.

Tammeroth, I'd suggest considering carefully your research strategy.

I'm not sure what setting you are using but looking at a recent game on Extreme with Expensive Research I had Gerax Hyperdrive research completed around 2108. At 2133 I'm researching Plasma Hardening and Shield Multipliers and the areas around my colonies and mines are now relatively free of Pirates and the nearest factions are dead or close enough to it. Looking forward there are some huge pirate factions around other Empires with the sort of numbers you mention, so while there is some fun ahead, and I've certainly had my share of bases destroyed and rebuilt along the way, the game is more or less over at this point.

Like you I like to keep the game interesting e.g. I always keep the story lines active and have a preference for large maps although I play more with Occasional/Scattered Colonies/Independents these days.