Mining???!!!!

[Starke]

Personally, the majority of my planets don't have any orbital facilities. If one is getting harassed, I'll assign a handful of ships to defend the system. That'll stop the pirates from destroying anything else in the system too, provided your mining stations have decent shielding. Remember that Spaceports are only needed for construction, retrofitting, international trade... and that's about it. Not every planet needs those capabilities. I prefer defensive fleets that are cheaper and more flexible as the game progresses.

[grumpy181155]

Thanks Starke. I am not saying that that approach is wrong because it obviously isn't but it does seem to go against every instinct I have and all my experience with space 4X games What sort of garrison forces do you usually have?

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
A game like this should be able to be played using many different strategies but with the current resource limitations we all have to play exactly the same way and that way has been predetermined by the developers.

Stay tuned below ...

ORIGINAL: elliotg
Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, you've allowed a great amount of flexibility in the game, I'm interested in your views on how a very different approach would work with your design intent.

Indeed I choose to have a custom design spaceport at every colony.

I have a small spaceport design for recently colonised planets It's quite a bit smaller again than the default (e.g. only 2 yards), so it can get up quickly, but it includes medical/recreation centres to benefit the colony below.

Almost all colonies have a medium space port which is designed as a defensive base and provides medical/recreation centre benefits to the colony below. Construction yards (etc) are also quite limited in these designs (more like the small spaceport default) but it allows some private ships to be built where needed, retiring recovered ships and the odd retrofit of defensive ships around hotspots. I also keep the cargo bays relatively low to avoid too many strategic resources being stockpiled where they aren't needed. These ports will also include Long Range Scanners.

On my homeworld (and subsequently any other homeworlds conquered) I build a Large Space Port. It is these few ports (particularly the homeworld) that are used to build my fleets as well as providing all the benefits of the Medium Space Port. It has at least twice as many construction yards and cargo bays (etc) as the default.

My experience (assuming well selected mining bases of course) is that I also don't have supply difficulties with this approach.

Indeed there do appear to be some advantages:

1. Every colony can benefit from medical/recreation centres (which won't be possible with only one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies).
2. Every colony has a long range scanner (which won't be possible with only one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies).
3. With a couple of "mega-ports" I have strategic resource stockpiles focused on a couple of locations only. I can build large fleets starting all positioned together (rather than dispersed over various spaceports and then having to form up). The construction speed benefit of Bakuras Highspeed Yards is also further enhanced. Homeworlds will tend to be the best supplied early to mid game of course.

[flight2q]

I've been including medical and recreation as part of the defensive platform design. I assumed that those facilities are actually providing their benfits.

[Plant]

I leave my bases on autodesign as a gameplay decision, but I find the ideas behind some of the custom designs very interesting.

I've noticed an interesting side effect to the stockpiling effect of starports. If you take over a rival colony and the staport is consequently destroyed, a very large number of freighters come to pick up the resources from that colony to deposit it into your own starports. Once, I took over a homeworld, and was very suprised to see a long line of hundreds of freighters transfering the accumulated resources of that homeworld to a large spaceport.

I wonder what how the resource distibution script goes for planets without and with different starport sizes.

Btw Icemania, I am not too sure, but I think cargobays don't serve any useful purpose in starports as they share the unlimited resource capacity of the colony that they are built on.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: elliotg

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155
Thanks for the feedback guys. Normally I let the AI manage the mining and yes this happens when I expand but this is a game where you are expected and need to expand to win ...right????

Plant I would love to post some images but I don't know how. The FAQ says check the box "Embed picture in Post" but I can't find the box to do that. [&:] Some details are though 91 colonies in 71 systems; approximately 1300 freighters; 40 ea mining and gas mining ships; 36 mining and 58 gas mining stations plus 164 military ships and 80 space ports. Money is not an issue as I have a sufficient cash flow frequently injecting cash into research.

Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: elliotg
Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?

In reading recent posts the options for Colonies that are not amongst the most critical strategically are:

My status quo ... a Custom Medium Spaceport (i.e. with a relatively small number of cargo bays, construction yards and plants).

Option 1: Custom Medium Spaceport as above but without the cargo bays. The construction yards and plants are retained in this option. For my custom designs the cost reduction from the status quo is 4%.

Option 2: Custom Starbase. The status quo without the construction yards and plants. Unlike Spaceports the Starbase design requires cargo bays to be retained. Cost reduction from status quo of 11%.

Option 3: Custom Defensive Base without the construction yards and plants. Unlike Starbases the cargo bays can be removed. Cost reduction from status quo of 15%.

Option 4: No Starport or Base.

The Ports and Bases can all provide medical and recreation benefits to the colony. Without a port or base at colonies these benefits are lost, which can be significant e.g. on newly conquered colonies minimising revolts or optimising tax rates elsewhere. Option 4 appears inferior to the others in this respect.

Refuelling time for a large fleet was the same for all options (based on test with the same planet at the same time in-game). Also upgrade time (doubling weapons) was the same for each option. As Plant suggested all options have direct access to the planetary resources as per the Ships and Bases screen so Cargo bays appear to add no value. Option 1 appears superior to my status quo so thank you Plant.

Starbases and Defensive bases are off centre from the planet which is potentially a benefit for pirate raiders. This is relevant as I consider one large base superior to a bunch of smaller ones (where focus fire is more effective, instead attackers need to get through the combined shields etc).

Some outstanding questions I need to consider further in-game are:

Do my Medium Spaceports (i.e. with a small number of construction yards) benefit the Private economy? Looking at my current game about 20-25% are actively building a Private ship. If I didn't have the Medium Spaceports would they just be built at the Large Spaceports instead?

Private ships will dock directly with the planet when Starbases or Defensive Bases are used but Private ships dock with Spaceports when they are available. Do the commerce centres in Spaceports therefore provide revenue benefits that Starbases and Defensive Bases cannot?

How does each option change what resources are stocked on the planet itself exactly?

Commentary welcome.

[Shark7]

Hmm, I wish we had an option for a space dock...that is a place to dock the freighters that has all the planetary benefits of space port without the need for the constructors. More like the anchor for an orbital elevator, where you unload the cargo in space with then moves down the cargo elevator to the surface.

I guess a real question to answer is: if you remove the cargo bays from say a small space port, will it reduce the resource requirements and ease the burden on my freighters?

Cost is not a concern with me, I build far more military ships than I need to be worried about saving a few credits on cargo bays. What annoys me is constantly being low on resources even when I have multiple sources for each resource.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Hmm, I wish we had an option for a space dock...that is a place to dock the freighters that has all the planetary benefits of space port without the need for the constructors. More like the anchor for an orbital elevator, where you unload the cargo in space with then moves down the cargo elevator to the surface.

I guess a real question to answer is: if you remove the cargo bays from say a small space port, will it reduce the resource requirements and ease the burden on my freighters?

Cost is not a concern with me, I build far more military ships than I need to be worried about saving a few credits on cargo bays. What annoys me is constantly being low on resources even when I have multiple sources for each resource.

Yeah I agree with the space dock concept. Maybe the spaceport design restriction to require construction yards and plants could be lifted so they become optional.

In the meantime with cost it's not just the cargo bays it's also the cost of construction yards / plants. The cost difference is not all that significant i.e. for my designs a maximum of 15%. That 15% might provide economic benefits and also bases have the disadvantage of an off-centre position. So for the moment I'm sticking with Medium Spaceports but obviously more testing, or advice from the developer, would be welcome.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: elliotg

Judging from the description of your game you simply have too many spaceports.

Spaceports are your ship construction yards, so when you build a spaceport the AI will stock a large supply of strategic resources there for building new ships. Your freighters will transport these requested resources to the spaceport.

But when you have 80 spaceports and only 94 mining stations then your freighters will have dire trouble supplying those resources.

Ideally you should have around one spaceport for every 3-4 colonies. And you should have at least 5 times as many mining stations as spaceports. You should locate spaceports at strategically critical colonies throughout your territory.

So in your case I would reduce your number of spaceports to 20-25. And I would build a few more mining stations for the resources in highest demand - ideally building them near the areas where they are needed the most.

The other single most important thing to do to ensure efficient transportation of resources is to keep your transport routes safe from enemy ships, pirates and space creatures (to/from mining stations, spaceports and colonies).

Hope this helps,
Elliot

Elliot, judging from what you posted here, it seems that there is a very good argument for designing star bases to gain the recreation and medical bonuses at colonies, and not have as many star ports. A cheap star base with no construction yard, some weapons, and the bonus components seems to be the more ideal way to go. Am I on the right track with this thinking?

I've put some further thought into these options looking at a current game which I plan to test more fully.

Consider late game 2140 (200+ colonies about 50 at maximum population)

The maintenance cost of each Spaceport or Base is about $2k. Weaponry and Shields have been reduced by quite a lot from mid-game as the Pirates are quiet.

The happiness benefits at the colonies are significant, usually around +30, which means I'm able to raise taxes by at least 20% of those colonies.

I would only need a colony revenue of $10k to justify the maintenance cost of the Port when considering this factor alone. Like many I tax only at colonies that have reached maximum population.

Now looking at those colonies at maximum population, all of them provide revenue greater than $10k, except for one planet at 57% quality. Many are far far greater than $10k of course. There are some colonies that are still growing that won't provide this revenue later in the game, but these are exceptions e.g. low quality planets with special ruins e.g. Fortress of Torak.

Consider a new colony

I've picked a new colony at random, quality 67%, all population policy set to assimilate, and tested the options while monitoring resources and freighter movements.

As Elliott has said, the choice to build a Spaceport will result in many more strategic resources being stockpiled at the colony, causing the problems well described in this thread. A Spaceport also deflects freighters from other activities of higher importance e.g. it looked like more luxuries got to the colony earlier and it also seemed like more of the resource outputs of the colony were being transported for sale.

Now a Spaceport or Base still provides happiness benefits that improve the population growth rate. It looks like this is a couple of percent only although it compounds. That said, if you choose Assimilation this will be the dominant factor in growth.

Back to the hard bit, Spaceport Income. Without a Spaceport, looks like freighters will ship resources provided at the colony to a world with a Spaceport, and those resources are then sold. However, with a Spaceport, freighters can go direct to each planet to buy and sell resources i.e. it should mean faster space post income. However, so long as the nearest Spaceports is close, the difference should be minimal.

Conclusion

Early on, Bases provide defence and some colony development support, minimising resource shortages elsewhere and inefficient use of freighters, which spaceports can cause. As the colony development support is small (particularly if you don't mind Assimilating) it also appears quite valid to defend colonies with ships only. Personally though I would use a mix Bases of Ships. Bases will still help on newly conquered planets to prevent revolts.

Later on, there is value in having either a Base at all well developed reasonable quality colonies that are being taxed, since the happiness benefits allow tax rates to be increased, which can be quite lucrative.

With Spaceports I'll now follow Elliott's advice as the developer i.e. Spaceports only at every 3-4 colonies ... but also ensuring travel times for internal empire freight stays small. Where there is a Spaceport; however, there is no real need for a Base.

Again commentary is welcome.

[Icemania]

Double post

[Shark7]

I'll be doing some experimenting later tonight. I think having a very minimal approach to the small star port (IE making it cheaper than a frigate) may be an answer.

Again, I'd prefer if the SSP itself could be used simply as a dock and cargo through-put, eliminating the constructors all-together.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I'll be doing some experimenting later tonight. I think having a very minimal approach to the small star port (IE making it cheaper than a frigate) may be an answer.

Again, I'd prefer if the SSP itself could be used simply as a dock and cargo through-put, eliminating the constructors all-together.

Let us know how you go Shark.

Note I've had a super small spaceport for a while and used this when I was monitoring the freighters. There were still a heap of freighters delivering resources to the colony that I was probably never going to use on a planet that wasn't strategically important taking away from higher value activities.

I totally agree with your comments on the SSP but this a more a query for Elliott. Another option for Elliott to consider maybe to allow a Starbase to act as a dock with cargo through-put if placed on a colony. That said, the hybrid base/port option is quite workable.

[Shark7]

Well so far, using a very minimal approach, the maintenance costs can be drastically reduced if you use what is essentially a throw away design for a small space port. I've also been using a star base designed with 30 missiles to act as a cheap version of a defense platform...

End result, I'm not running in the red money-wise, even when resources are short. The bad is that I can't seem to get ahead of the resource shortages so long as I use a star port at each colony, no matter how small it is or the fact that I eliminated all star port cargo holds. Increasing the construction ship numbers just exacerbates the resource shortage problem even though you can build mines more quickly, as you also have more ships requiring resources.

End result, my vote is for a type of station that is build over the planet like a small star port, docks and moves resources between ships and planets like the small star port, but does not require any constructors or plants. In other words a simple docking station.

Honestly I wouldn't be opposed to a reworking of how the whole starport thing works. Instead of having 3 sizes of star port, perhaps we really only need to better define their roles:

1. Space Dock (current SSP): A place where ships dock and transfer cargo. Can have all the amenities of the current star ports, just without being able to build or repair ships (IE no constructors allowed)
2. Pirate base: Simply a smaller version of a shipyard to be used by pirates so that they can be built via constructor ships. Would replace the medium star port and not be available to regular empires.
3. Shipyards: Same as current large star port. To discourage the building of these at every planet, they should have a minimum size (since planetary stations have no max size limits). The minimum size would make them very large, and very, very expensive.

In this way you could build a dock at every planet to increase through-put and get the bonuses, but not suffer the severe resource shortages or be forced to build bases off center of the planet.

[Icemania]

I've never had a problem financing space ports everywhere with a Super Small Spaceport design from the start, even when then upgrading to a smaller than default Medium Spaceport ... which I've been doing routinely since Legends. I don't sell technology to other empires these days either.

With respect to getting ahead of the resource shortages:

1. I've never really had a problem with resources for fleet building (with resources early game at your homeworld), the initial building of mining bases (construction ship resources fed early game from your homeworld). Like many I focus early on ensuring mining bases are well in place but I also ensure I don't overbuild bases (i.e. that will consume resources for no benefit).

2. I've been quite happy to be patient with building ports and upgrading bases which require resources to be spread around. I'll generally just keep my fleet around until the space port is built. Bases similarly I'm quite happy for them to be upgraded slowly over the course of the game. Until this thread I had never tracked freighter movements so I hadn't appreciate that building less ports would help.

I very much agree with your proposal to clarify roles.

[Shark7]

The problem I run into is that as you run into resource shortages, the cost of maintenance goes up. Playing on the hardest levels may be part of the cause, since the hardest levels seems to have either increased resource demand or decreased production level.

[Icemania]

Shark, I play Extreme difficulty et al, and a few games on a harsh start as well. Looking at a few saves I very rarely find the prices going up for strategics. I know you are a very experienced player, are you sure you have enough mining bases for all strategics?

After the initial phase of mining bases building I never run low on stock ... it's just a question of how long it takes to get to the right place ...

[Plant]

I think the best way to ensure that you have resources stored for ship production is to only have as few Large Starports as possible and only build at that Large Starport. For instance, if you only have one Starport, the vast majority of the resources will be allocated and transported there and you will produce solely from that starport, thus resources stored, directly correlate with the resources you can use to build any military ships that you wish to build.

[Icemania]

Agree Plant, this is what I do every game, and it works well ... even though I hadn't realised what those Small Spaceports were doing to resource movements until now!

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Shark, I play Extreme difficulty et al, and a few games on a harsh start as well. Looking at a few saves I very rarely find the prices going up for strategics. I know you are a very experienced player, are you sure you have enough mining bases for all strategics?

After the initial phase of mining bases building I never run low on stock ... it's just a question of how long it takes to get to the right place ...

It may be my overly aggressive playstyle Icemania. I may just be expanding too fast at first, and going to war too soon (I have a tendency to do this). I may need to force myself to slow down the build-up till I get some mines built, instead of putting a base over a planet the instant I colonize or conquer it.

I always recover from it, but I also always have a period of resource shortages.

Edit: Shadows also changed the way a few of the game systems work. I simply haven't managed to completely readjust to it yet.