AI for MWiF - Germany

[Dangun]

ORIGINAL: Neilster
It should be noted that although a lot of work has been done on the AI opponent, the initial release won't have one. It appears there will be a large pool of potential online opponents of all abilities though.

If the initial version will not have AI will it be set-up for just 2 player, or will it work smoothly with more than 2 players? That used to work well at the board, but maybe clunkier online.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Dangun

ORIGINAL: Neilster
It should be noted that although a lot of work has been done on the AI opponent, the initial release won't have one. It appears there will be a large pool of potential online opponents of all abilities though.

If the initial version will not have AI will it be set-up for just 2 player, or will it work smoothly with more than 2 players? That used to work well at the board, but maybe clunkier online.

For the initial release there will be 3 modes of play:
- Solitaire: you (Axis) versus yourself (Allied).
- Head-to-head: a.k.a. Hot Seat, you versus a friend (who thinks he is better than you at war games) playing on a single computer.
- NetPlay: you versus an opponent (possibly a friend, probably someone you met on-line in the World in Flames forum), each of you using your own computer and playing in real time over the internet.

---

As a post-release 'patch' I will be adding the capability for NetPlay games to include up to 6 players. [I will need to buy 2 more computers to debug that code.[:)]]

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The defense of the German western front during 39/40 is very straightforward; the only minor factor is depending on which strategy Germany has chosen: France First or Historical Poland First.

Hamburg/Kiel Area
*An Allied invasion close to Kiel or an attack down from Denmark (uncommon) is one possibly if the tempting targets of German naval units are present. One German unit at Danish border/Kiel/Hamburg is enough defense. This unit is often a fast 4 mp unit in order to help Germany take Denmark quickly. Some also leave this area undefended.

Rhineland/Hanover Area
*An Allied attack through the lowlands is very; very unlikely unless Germany does a 1940 Barbarossa in which case a few units is need in the Rhineland to be able to reinforce the defense of Belgium/Netherlands. Of course if Germany does a France First is the area packed with units.

French Border Area
* Only the French border needs to be defended. The two of most common options are:
- Every hex with one unit.
- A one hex hole at the most southern hex.

During a France First or during a trick to lure the Allies into align Yugoslavia when Axis is ready for; is to leave the two forest hexes against the Maginot line empty, this is a somewhat more risky option.

Note that some of units needed to defend the western front can come from when Germany goes to war with France/Commonwealth. Ex in order to defend against France along the Maginot line: place 2 GAR units in the two forest hexes during setup and later place one disrupted reinforcement unit per hex at the three city hexes.

A bold German strategy western front could be also to try and snitch the Netherlands during a late Sep/Oct impulse (or possibly even during a fine Nov/Dec) if CW has commit its transports. To goal of the strategy to get the Rotterdam hex and hope of fine weather in Nov/Dec to get a crack at Belgium “Who cares that the US-Entry will sky rocket!” a tell sign is often a few more German units near the Netherlands border.

To sum it up: normally Germany needs about a minimum of 4-6 units at the western front.

Hamburg/Kiel Area
I wouldn't even think of invading Denmark with Germany without a unit that moves 6 on the border. Whether you use the ART PzJag I (2-6) division (which I prefer) or the XLVI MECH (8-6) (from the reserves reorganized by HQI von Bock (7 (3) 3)). Along with a MTN or INF with a 4 movement to take Copenhagen. This allows me to overrun the Danish naval units in Denmark. I prefer not to give the Allies any more naval units than I have to.

Give me the ART PzJag I (2-6) division and a MTN and they will be set up on the Danish border.


Rhineland/Hanover Area
I agree an Allied invasion of Germany from the lowland is very, very unlikely. But the French can attack Saarbrucken from Metz and Strasborug.

Saarbrucken is a clear city hex on a surprise impulse.

Minimum French INF combat factors 10
Average French INF combat factors 15
Maximum French INF combat factors 21

HQ-I Billotte (5-(2)-3)

And a French INF 1-3 division and a French GUN

Without air units this means a total of 18 to 30 French combat factors.

If Germany chooses "France first" yes eventually this area will be packed with German units but not on the first turn.


The Karlsruhe/Stuttgart area (AKA the Siegfried Line)
This is the area I prefer to place all 3 fortifications in the two woods hexes southwest of Stuttgart. Where the French can attack from two Maginot line hexes.

[brian brian]

The Germans should place their forts with an eye to 1945, not 1939. I like them at the south end of the Oder river, and a key pass in the Czechoslovakian mountains. The real Hitler would never have done that of course, possibly leading to players unhappy with a gimmicky AI, though I have never agreed with that idea.

The MTN unit is most economically used in Austria and perhaps on towards southern Poland along with the Ju-52 nearby, with an eye towards being an air-mobile emergency unit for dealing with unlikely, but possible, Stalinist adventures in the Balkans. Should those fail to materialize, it can march into the Poland garrison, ready for pact calculations in 1940 without taking up a strategic move.

The CW can't really invade Germany from the sea unless they break down some units at set-up. Highly unlikely. If they did, I would purposely leave north-east Germany empty but a few speedy units in the Rhineland woods.

By all means, move that tank-destroyer unit to Frederikshavn all by it's lonesome. Winnie can't wait to send over Lord Gort to meet them.

"France First" means attacking France on the first turn. High risk, high reward strategy.

[peskpesk]

Here is an example of a France First setup, note the few German units facing Poland

http://www.eurowif.de/con11/con2011_reporttable1.htm

[brian brian]

hey man, nice shot

[Extraneous]

peskpesk since you are from Sweden english is not your first language and I can understand his difficulties presenting your ideas. Keep up the good work and thanks for the screen shot.

But I thought you all meant "France first after Poland" not "Poland and France at the same time".

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The CW can't really invade Germany from the sea unless they break down some units at set-up. Highly unlikely. If they did, I would purposely leave north-east Germany empty but a few speedy units in the Rhineland woods.

By all means, move that tank-destroyer unit to Frederikshavn all by it's lonesome. Winnie can't wait to send over Lord Gort to meet them.

I have and would send the TD to Frederikshavn if it means sinking or capturing Danish naval units in an overrun and keeping them from the CW.

brian brian if as you say " The CW can't really invade Germany from the sea unless they break down some units at set-up. Highly unlikely.".

In 1939 with No AMPH or MAR how does Gort invade Frederikshavn, Denmark against the TD, the notional unit, on a non-surprise impulse, with an intact German air force?

I have already posted I don't use the German air force in Poland it isn't necessary.

[paulderynck]

Germany may not have taken every hex on the North Sea coast. Most likely, Denmark is aligned with the CW, so any hex still controlled by Denmark (i.e. the CW) can be a disembarkation location for Gort and a corps on the subsequent Allied impulse.

Ideally, Germany needs to take every North Sea Coastal hex. Of course a couple divisions can accomplish this in fine weather.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Germany may not have taken every hex on the North Sea coast. Most likely, Denmark is aligned with the CW, so any hex still controlled by Denmark (i.e. the CW) can be a disembarkation location for Gort and a corps on the subsequent Allied impulse.

Ideally, Germany needs to take every North Sea Coastal hex. Of course a couple divisions can accomplish this in fine weather.

World in Flames: Global war (see The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945)
Order of set up
1.) USA
2.) USSR
3.) Italy
4.) China
5.) CW
6.) France
7.) Japan
8.) Germany

1939 the CW has Gort and 2 INF units in Europe.

In Your scenario the CW makes no attempt to send Land units to Gibraltar, Malta, or Egypt.

It retains all its Land units in Great Britain because the CW Grand Strategy hinges upon a TD division in Denmark?

[paulderynck]

Doesn't matter what is in Denmark, you asked how it could be done. Now you know.

The CW may choose a strategy of "wait and see what opportunities present themselves".

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't matter what is in Denmark, you asked how it could be done. Now you know.

The CW may choose a strategy of "wait and see what opportunities present themselves".

I take it the CW would be taking a Combined action in the face of the Luftwaffe. Are you going to send the entire CW Navy also?

Activity limits:
All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during their impulse
Unlimited Declarations of war
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Headquarters reorganization
Unlimited TRS re-supply

These missions occur during every air mission except re-base, naval air and naval air interception
-- Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
-- Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
-- Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions


All major powers (including the units of their aligned minor countries) during an enemy impulse
Unlimited Combat air patrol missions
Unlimited Escorting aircraft missions
Unlimited Intercepting aircraft missions
Unlimited Naval movement only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).
Unlimited Naval interception missions
Unlimited Naval combat only in sea areas your opponent moved a unit into, and only if they did not try to initiate combat there.
Unlimited Naval air interception missions
Unlimited Shore bombardment if you are playing with defensive shore bombardment - see 11.16.2 Shore bombardment.
Unlimited Ground support missions
Unlimited Re-base aircraft missions only when a unit’s base is overrun (see 11.11.6 Overruns).


Commonwealth activity limits:
Naval action
No Rail movement
Unlimited Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Naval Embarkation
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Paradrop
-- Unlimited Debarkation (units transported directly into port debark with no land movement cost)
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
3x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Air action
2x Rail movement (You can only rail aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combats
No Land movements
-- Land moves
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
-- Debarkation
No Land attacks
-- Land attack
-- Invasions
-- Paradrop
Unlimited Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop this is only possible if your ATRs are carrying units of a co-operating major power that chose a land or combined action.
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Land action
2x Rail movement (You can only rail land units or factories) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
No Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation only if a co-operating major power (that chose a naval or combined action) embarks your unit.
-- Naval transport
-- Naval combat (this does not deny your naval units that stayed at sea from a previous impulse the ability to make enemy naval units fight their through)
Unlimited Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
Unlimited Land attacks (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat).
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
2x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Combined action
1x Rail movement (You can rail land units, factories, or aircraft units) it costs 1-4 rail moves to move 1 unit depending on the distance moved, see 11.10 Rail movement.
2x Naval movements (a naval movement is the movement of 1 task force - see 11.4 Naval movement)
-- Naval moves
-- Unlimited Embarkation
-- Unlimited Naval transport
-- Unlimited Naval combat
3x Land movement
-- Land moves (a land move is the movement of 1 land unit - see 11.11 Land movement)
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Land movement)
-- Debarkation
1x Land attack (a land attack is an attack against 1 enemy stack by any number of units - see 11.16 Land combat)
-- Land attack
-- Invasions (each Invasion counts as 1x Land Attack)
-- Paradrop (each Paradrop counts as 1x Land Attack)
5x Air missions (an air mission is the flight of 1 aircraft unit)
-- Port attacks
-- Naval air missions
-- Strategic bombardment missions
-- Ground strike missions
-- Paradrop (each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission)
-- Air transport missions
-- Re-base aircraft missions
-- Air re-supply missions

Each unit that Paradrops counts as 1x Air mission and 1x Land movement.
Each Paradrop counts as 1x Land attack.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The Commonwealth has other land units available, altough some depend on optional rules. Here's the code from MWIF for the Commonwealth setup.

There are motorized units (MO), territorials (TE) as well as infantry (IN).

Because the Allies get the second impulse, and they are not at war with anyone, they can transport some units from far off areas (e.g., India) into Europe.

The number of possibilities are quite large for where the Commonwealth deploys its land units. If corps sized units can be broken down into divisions, then even the cruisers can be used to transport land units. For example (and I am not necessarily recommending this), the infantry corps in India could be broken down into divisions during setup and then during a second impulse Naval action sent to Malta and Gibraltar on fast moving cruisers. Hopefully the Polish setup is such that none of those units need to move or fight.

---
mcCommonwealth: // Global War.
begin
AddGroupCountry(['United Kingdom'], ['[United Kingdom]', 'HQ Gort',
'ME 1', 'MO 2', 'F2 2/2', 'L2 1/1', 'L3 1/4', 'N2 0/1', 'A3 1',
'PI 5', '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'IN 1', 'CS Terror', 'CS Erebus',
'[Commonwealth]', 'OI 1']);

AddGroupCountry(['Egypt', 'Palestine'], ['[United Kingdom]',
'HQ Wavell', 'TE 2']);

AddGroupSimple(lEurope, ['[United Kingdom]', 'CS Ark Royal',
'CS Courageous', 'CS Furious', 'CS Argus', 'CS Hermes', 'CS Hood',
'CS Nelson', 'CS Resolution', 'CS Revenge', 'CS Royal Oak',
'CS Warspite', 'CS Barham', 'CS Ramillies', 'CS Renown',
'CS Repulse', 'CS Rodney', 'CS Royal Sovereign', 'CS Edinburgh',
'CS Hawkins', 'CS Norfolk', 'CS Southampton', 'CS Belfast',
'CS Effingham', 'CS Exeter', 'CS Glasgow', 'CS Newcastle',
'CS Sheffield', 'CS York', 'CL Arethusa', 'CL Carlisle',
'CL Ceres', 'CL Emerald', 'CL Aurora', 'CL Cairo', 'CL Calcutta',
'CL Caledon', 'CL Calypso', 'CL Capetown', 'CL Caradoc',
'CL Cardiff', 'CL Colombo', 'CL Curlew', 'CL Delhi', 'CL Diomede',
'CL Dragon', 'CL Dunedin', 'CL Enterprise', 'CL Galatea',
'CL Penelope', 'TE 2',
'[Commonwealth]', 'ASW 1']);

AddGroupSimple(lPacificAsia, ['[United Kingdom]', 'CS Glorious',
'CS Eagle', 'CS Kent', 'CS Manchester', 'CS Malaya',
'CS Birmingham', 'CS Cornwall', 'CS Devonshire', 'CS Dorsetshire',
'CS Gloucester', 'CS Liverpool', 'CS Sussex', 'CL Coventry',
'[India]', 'IN 1', 'TE 1',
'[Australia]', 'CS Australia', 'CS Canberra', 'CS Shropshire',
'CL Sydney', 'CL Adelaide', 'CL Hobart',
'[New Zealand]', 'CL Leander',
'[Commonwealth]', 'OI 1']);

AddGroupSimple(lAmerica, ['[United Kingdom]', 'CS Berwick',
'CS Cumberland', 'CL Ajax', 'CL Danae', 'CL Durban',
'CL Despatch', 'CL Dauntless', 'CL Neptune', 'CL Orion',
'[Australia]', 'CL Perth',
'[New Zealand]', 'CL Achilles']);
// ****************************************************************************
// 3x8 + 3x5 + 5x3 + 8x2 + 11x1 = 81 convoys.
// ****************************************************************************
AddGroupSimple(lAny, ['[United Kingdom]', 'IN 1', 'NT 4', 'SU 2',
'CN 8', 'CN 8', 'CN 8', 'CN 5', 'CN 5', 'CN 5', 'CN 3', 'CN 3',
'CN 3', 'CN 3', 'CN 3', 'CN 2', 'CN 2', 'CN 2', 'CN 2', 'CN 2',
'CN 2', 'CN 2', 'CN 2', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1',
'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1', 'CN 1',
'CP 8/5', 'TE 1', '[Div]', 'AT 1', 'EN 1',
'[Commonwealth]', 'OI 1']);

[brian brian]

You are selling the CW very short Extraneous. The CW has more than enough assets to do this while defending Egypt with Wavell, Malta with the Royal Engineers & a Gun, Gibraltar with an INF, the UK with a GARR, MECH, a RES INF and a RES MIL (both quite good and can be re-organized). That leaves Gort, 2 MOT, a gun, and an infantry division to respond to whatever Axis decisions they reveal during set up and their first two impulses.

Let's say the tank destroyer goes to Frederikshavn all by it's lonesome. Gort + MOT + 2 CV + 4 BB + 2 TRS + 3 CA (or 3 CV, 2 CA; or use even more BB & CA to a 15 ship target profile) sail out to the North Sea, yes on a combined impulse, daring the Kriegsmarine to do anything about it. 2 land moves deposit Gort + MOT ashore adjacent to the port, where they annihilate the SP AT at 10:1 even with Luftwaffe intervention, and take Frederikshavn with their single land attack. Which quickly becomes a base for British medium bombers to raid the Baltic Sea, and perhaps even a pair of the old R Class BBs by the end of the turn if the CW can pull off a naval impulse to re-organize them. On the second turn some MIL from the UK and possibly an AT Gun of their own reinforce northern Denmark. A shore bombardment squadron takes up a rotating station in the North Sea, assuming defensive shore bombardment in play, while a solid squadron of four fresh BBs, or 3 BB + SUB, sail out into the Baltic. Gort and MOT rotate out and cheap UK MIL units hold the place through the winter.

The Germans have lots of things they CAN do about this. But when they are responding to British moves on the first two turns, the operational initiative is slipping out of their hands. The British are trading their ships in for losses to the German cruiser fleet and probably German Convoy Points as well, rather than the Germans raiding UK CP in the Atlantic. The Luftwaffe is sucked into the Baltic rather than reinforcing an Italian offensive in the Mediterranean. The Luftwaffe isn't too fearsome at sea in the first winter of the war. Panzers are diverted from desired German strategy to march to north Denmark. If the UK puts that AT Gun up there, Hitler has to send an ARM + Arm division to call a blitz combat, and attack across straits hexsides onto cheap CW units possibly backed by 14" shells from off-shore. Much of the German response will be done in bad weather, making it slow, and things can get uglier and uglier for an OKW scrambling to deal with this as they have to call Combined impulses to protect the Baltic while they simultaneously move the army back to the Rhineland and now Denmark too. If German tanks and Stukas are in northern Denmark in May, 1940, French military bands will be playing God Save The Queen. If Germany leaves the British to their nice little Baltic base, they eventually have much less merchant shipping left, the Kriegsmarine has been cut in half, and German production has been nicked and cut here and there, and will continue to be until they do something about Denmark.

This is how you win a wargame. By seizing the operational initiative when and where you can. I hope the CW AI has this operation script at the ready to pounce on bad German play.

All the Germans have to do to prevent this nightmare scenario is split their at-start MOT into 2 divisions, and send them, along with that nifty tank destroyer unit, to take all the coastal hexes of Denmark (and be smart enough to not DOW Denmark in the Rain). It's easy and doesn't in any way detract from any other chosen German strategy as you normally use 2 units in Denmark. If you ever make the mistake as Germany of sending a single weak unit to North Denmark against a good CW player, you will only ever do that once.

And that is not CW Grand Strategy. It is an option they hold in response to poor German play in Denmark. They only have one Grand Strategy decision to make at set-up and on the first turn, and that is whether to launch pre-emptive war on the Italian fleet. Everything else they do is a reaction to the Axis, who naturally hold the initiative. The Royal Navy gives the CW complete freedom to deploy where they want. If Italy is going all-in attacking Algeria, the CW can fight there. Or, they can land in Rotterdam in response to a bungled German operation in the Netherlands. Or if Egypt is invaded by land and sea, CW TRS missions can be used for that area.



The Germans can NOT think defensively on the first turn, AT ALL. They don't need to hold units back to see what the Allies do until mid 1942 at best. Thinking otherwise will lead to Axis defeat. Put a 3 or 4 factor unit in each hex adjacent to France and call it good as you go on to make offensive plans. If it is a conservative Poland-only strategy (a good choice), use the Luftwaffe in Poland to help limit German casualties should the dice go bad. Use an air mission to strike the Danish CP in addition to overrunning them. Or go for more via attacking the Netherlands, or my preference, the No Bessarabia strategy line of DOW on Yugoslavia on the 2nd Axis impulse. When I do that I put even less on the French frontier. If the Allies want to foolishly attack Germany in Sep/Oct 1939, let them. They are digging their own grave that much faster if they do.

[Neilster]

I'm not up on the current rules but that sounds like sage advice. Very well written too.

people who rite poorly with no puctuation are annoying they should relize that writing proply makes it much easier to read its more enjoyable too why dont they do it

Cheers, Neilster

[Extraneous]

Let's say the tank destroyer goes to Frederikshavn all by it's lonesome. Gort + MOT + 2 CV + 4 BB + 2 TRS + 3 CA (or 3 CV, 2 CA; or use even more BB & CA to a 15 ship target profile) sail out to the North Sea, yes on a combined impulse, daring the Kriegsmarine to do anything about it. 2 land moves deposit Gort + MOT ashore adjacent to the port, where they annihilate the SP AT at 10:1 even with Luftwaffe intervention, and take Frederikshavn with their single land attack. Which quickly becomes a base for British medium bombers to raid the Baltic Sea, and perhaps even a pair of the old R Class BBs by the end of the turn if the CW can pull off a naval impulse to re-organize them. On the second turn some MIL from the UK and possibly an AT Gun of their own reinforce northern Denmark. A shore bombardment squadron takes up a rotating station in the North Sea, assuming defensive shore bombardment in play, while a solid squadron of four fresh BBs, or 3 BB + SUB, sail out into the Baltic. Gort and MOT rotate out and cheap UK MIL units hold the place through the winter.

Germany draws 3 LND2 and 4 LND3 and chooses 2 LND2 and 3 LND3.

3 of the 5 LND2 (60%) have an ATS (Air to Ship) factor of 1.
4 of the 11 LND3 (36%) have an ATS factor of 1.

That's 7 of the German 17 LND (41%) with an ATS factor of 1.

Germany gets an NAV with an ATS factor of 2.

Germany with 2 LND2 + 1 LND3 + 1 NAV = 5 ATS factors

German bombers = 4

CW with 2 CV + 4 BB + 2 TRS + 3 CA = 11 ships

Germany (with no aborts, losses, or adjustments) vs. 11 CW ships = sink 1 ship (the CW choice).
Germany (with no aborts, losses, or adjustments) vs. 15 CW ships = sink 1 ship (the CW choice) 1 abort (Germanys choice).

It all depends on the surprise roll whether you get to disembark or not. Either way the TD did its job by overrunning the Danish naval units. Any other Allied losses are a bonus.



By the way brian brian you forgot something.

The earliest Denmark can be invaded by Germany is the second Axis (or third) impulse the earliest the CW can debark units in Denmark is the second Allied (or forth) impulse. The turn will end soon.

There is no second turn or winter in Denmark for the CW.

See my post #105 on August 5, 2009 .

[brian brian]

You can continue to ignore reports of this game in action all you want. I don't write these posts solely for you, Extraneous, because you will not accept anyone disagreeing with you and just absurdly try to dispute anything that does. I have typed my thoughts on this game possibility into the thread for the writers of the AI scripts in the years to come, and because I don't have the time to actually play World in Flames right now. It is infinitely more fun to play the game than to play it theoretically.

I have seen this happen while I was playing the Russians, and I repeated the exercise playing the CW in a different game. Both German players were pretty shocked at the results, and I doubt they ever let this happen to them again. One might think it is worth baiting the British into doing this, but I disagree. The Brits maintain the operational initiative due to the strength of the Royal Navy, and their best play is to spend a few BPs on cheap units to delay and disrupt Axis plans. They can plan into the future and evacuate the whole operation as the Germans slog into north Denmark, or force the end game of all those German moves to eradicate 4-8 BP of MIL, or maximum 12 w/the AT Gun that they don't often use much anyway. Designing Axis moves solely merely to attrition the British early on isn't very smart...that's playing into Allied hands in a theater (the Baltic) where nothing is gained for the Axis, only resources, casualties, and action limits lost. Far smarter to press the Allies so hard in the Med or the Western Front that the CW doesn't have this option anyway, or can devote far less to the idea. Use your units to do what you want, not what the enemy wants. And as the Brits I still might play a little smash mouth football in the Baltic anyway as I tend to build 3 MIL for the CW the first 2 turns, and carefully sail TRS more than once a turn, and feel the CW is more than capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. The Royal Navy has 14 BBs to attack the Axis with, who only have 4.

The Luftwaffe can fight in the North Sea, sure. I have had a lucky Luftwaffe sink a sloppily deployed Ark Royal on the first turn. It is wiser for the CW to sail Lord Gort to Brittany on France's Atlantic Coast, re-organize the TRS that did it, and send that TRS safely on towards Australia later on the first turn...unless the Germans hand you this opportunity.

The Luftwaffe doesn't have much range. Their NAV can reach the 3 box, but it won't have FTR escort. The Germans might have a 3 air-to-air FTR-2 that can reach the 2 box (same as the CW CV-borne Gladiators), and a twin engine FTR as well, though it fights CW CV fighters or Hurricanes at a disadvantage. A few German bombers can reach the 2 box as well. Any German plane in the 2 or 3 box represents an air mission not being used in support of the Army, or taking high % shots at minor Allied CPs surprised in port, rather than low % shots at sea. I some times do use 3 air missions to put a nice force in the 2 box, but I will not send the NAV to 3 box by itself. (Might react for no mission cost to the 2 box though). And I would rather have the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean anyway, unless I'm planning kitchen sink Barbarossa and keeping Italy neutral in 1939.

The CW serious about escorting troop convoys in the North Sea might have CV cover in the box with the transports. Possibly a CV with a long range FTR up in the 4 box, effectively then in the 5 box. The TRS more likely will be covered by a pair of Hurricanes in the 1 box if the Luftwaffe is on the shores of the North Sea. Yes, possibly 2 whole naval moves for the CW, they can do that. An air battle on the first turn in the North Sea is a slightly unequal contest, but I still might try it as the Germans; though I would never rely on the results to keep the Tommies out of Frederikshavn rather than just using a pair of motorised divisions instead. Perhaps not at all with 5 box CV + 2 FTR2 over the TRS. The bombers that clear through won't have many factors and the CW will have a lot of AA factors. The vast majority of the time, the TRS will get through, and perhaps Fleet Air Arm will be attritioned some, but so will the Luftwaffe. The Royal Navy won't be harmed much unless the Germans get very lucky. Also often the Germans won't have a lot of spare air missions to try this until their 3rd impulse, as their air force is designed for use on land, which is where most players use it to smash the Poles and lower German infantry casualties. I engage it in Yugoslavia as well.

Sep/Oct generally runs 4 or 5 impulses per side, with each impulse perhaps a 55% chance of being clear weather in the North Temperate. The Germans are guaranteed a second impulse, as are the Allies. The Allies get a 3rd impulse in 99% of all games.

[Extraneous]

Where have I disputed ANY of your claims you have made in your scenario?

Yes, I have pointed out some things you choose to ignore (the German air units) and an incorrect assumption you have made about the CW being able to stay in Denmark after incomplete conquest. Did you even check the link?

Back then I argued that you could stay after incomplete conquest and was informed by Steve and others I was reading the rule wrong. I didn't like it but I went along with Steve's ruling.



Here's one for you to think about

The German MTN marches into Copenhagen, Denmark.

Germany then rebases a LAN3 and a FTR (with a range of 3) there. After all they have nothing to do until Germany marches into France in 1940 anyway.

Your "annihilating" 10 to 1 odds are now 7 to 1 odds with shore bombardment (without shore bombardment it's 3 to 1) on the assault table.

At 7 to 1 odds roll less than 4 and you don't take Frederikshavn roll a 1 and you loose the MOT.

At 3 to 1 odds there are 2 chances you loose Gort and the MOT. And 3 chances you loose just the MOT.


Your carrier planes are worthless in supporting Land units in Denmark because in Air-to-air combat they are at one-tenth their air-to-air strength against the German FTR units.

To get any real air cover over your task force it has to come from Great Britain.



To me your scenario is a hopeless CW venture and a waste of CW resources for no real gain.

[brian brian]

Did you read the link? Back then you were arguing the CW would have to leave and were corrected then, now you again say the CW would have to leave, which is still wrong. You are just arguing to argue, and not very well.

The CW can stay in Denmark after conquest as they are at war with the conquerer.

I know what the Luftwaffe can do in the North Sea. 19 times in 20 (rough guess), they can't prevent British troops from landing. 1939 is one of the most interesting periods in the game with the low counter densities, and is one of the few parts of the game that can be analyzed tactically very well with far less variable game conditions to consider.

The Denmark campaign is the simplest in the game. Don't invade in the Rain, use 3 fast division sized units. The end. No CW adventure.

I usually wouldn't use Fleet Air Arm ashore vs Me-109, no. But I might ship a Hurricane to Denmark, despite the risk of losing the pilot when I eventually lose the hex. I play the CW aggressively perhaps. One more German FTR might go up there to deal with it, and FTRs are hard to deploy in France. It's not easy for the Germans to get back on that island; they might not get a good chance to do so until M/J 40, when they have better things to be doing with the not insignificant resources it takes to do it. The CW will always draw an anti-tank asset if they scrap the 2 factor ART, and is another piece of limited value in France (troop commitment limits) or the Med (holding Algerian mountains or Egyptian cities). 50/50 that piece starts in England; at worst it arrives in Denmark in J/F 40.

Edit: Oh I just re-read your response, I thought you suggested flying the MTN on towards Frederikshavn, my mistake as I projected that onto what you wrote myself, sorry. I just can't well follow arguing with using 3 fast units rather than 2 and ending this CW option using a minimum force and I got confused reading that with the LAN3 and the MTN unit better used elsewhere.

If the AT Gun is in Frederikshavn by itself, it's defense strength is 1. If the Luftwaffe helps it, that goes up to 2, and the CW doesn't intercept, because it is still 22-2 = 11-1.

If the Germans send a 2-5 Motorised division to that port and covers it with Luftwaffe fighter and bomber cover, I still attack it at 24-4 = 6-1 by adding the CW infantry division to the attacking force. Offensive Shore Bombardment is always in play and the CW has the BB fleet to double attacks on a coastal hex. This is a decent possibility now that I finally realized (thanks to thinking out loud in these threads, thanks everyone, and I think I will definitely play the CW next time I can play this game) I could make this whole campaign happen by ground striking the German units on the Danish border (as always, assuming no France First). Normally I port strike the Kriegsmarine hoping to hit the Gneisenau or Scharnhorst, but this might give me more bang for the cheap bucks.

Maybe a conservative, Poland-only German AI needs to set up 4 units (5? 6 would be too many, the RAF can't bomb that well) near the Danish border. That will require 6 movers in the second hex. Panzers. Much harder for the CW to disrupt 2 hexes. Yes, I have done that as the Germans.

The bottom line is the same - sometimes, a German player gets a little sloppy, not realizing the CW capabilities on their impulse. The whole point of the idea is to make the Germans respond to it, and that is not a waste of several quickly replaced 2 BP infantry class units.

[brian brian]

And I would suggest brushing up on the rules for air combat, esp. with regards to CV fighters vs land-based ones, and how back-up fighters work as compared to front line fighters. But I do not want to fight about how parenthetical clauses work. If a CV plane is your front fighter, your air-to-air strength is that CV plane's air-to-air rating. If it is a back-up fighter in the line, you only add it's air-to-air values as tenths. That is how it works.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

And I would suggest brushing up on the rules for air combat, esp. with regards to CV fighters vs land-based ones, and how back-up fighters work as compared to front line fighters. But I do not want to fight about how parenthetical clauses work. If a CV plane is your front fighter, your air-to-air strength is that CV plane's air-to-air rating. If it is a back-up fighter in the line, you only add it's air-to-air values as tenths. That is how it works.

Read my post again.

Your carrier planes are worthless in supporting Land units in Denmark because in Air-to-air combat they are at one-tenth their air-to-air strength against the German FTR units.

I said nothing about CAP other than you would need FTR from Great Britain if the CVP were to be used as back up fighters.