Assault time

[Nox0s]

I've only just recently gotten BFTB so I'm still adjusting to the upgraded engine, and one thing I've noticed is that I'm often having troops not assaulting at the correct time. Often, they sleep right through it. Is it necessary to always use the "none" rest setting to get troops to assault at the correct time? I kinda thought that giving an assault time would trump all other priorities of a unit but maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works.

[wodin]

Yes you have to set the rest..if it's nigh they will sleep. Make sure no rest is ticked if you want to assualt.

[Arjuna]

Point taken about priority of an attack order. However, our earlier experience before we had the rest at night settings was that players would never rest their troops and that is not realistic. So we automatically rest them for you although we do give you the power to override the normal rest at night time.

[Nox0s]

Yes that makes sense, definitely nice to have that extra degree of control.

I did have something weird happen just now in the Skorzeny scenario. I'd managed to push into Malmedy with about a battalion and half's worth of infantry and mechanized units and was making good progress into the city from the north west with the enemy being mostly tied up to the south by the bridge and along the highway to the east... when suddenly my attack force all promptly moved back into the forest to their original FUP and went to sleep! Granted I did have them set to "normal", but I thought that only made them rest at night (this was around noon)?

Anyways, it seemed a bit strange. Stopping forward movement in the town sure, but running back nearly a kilometer across the bridge and back into the forest?

I didn't touch the units or the HQ commanding the attack from when I gave the order around 3AM (with rest set to "normal" so it wouldn't start till dawn)

Regardless I'm really enjoying the new engine and the AI continues to really impress me.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: NoxNoctum

Yes that makes sense, definitely nice to have that extra degree of control.

I did have something weird happen just now in the Skorzeny scenario. I'd managed to push into Malmedy with about a battalion and half's worth of infantry and mechanized units and was making good progress into the city from the north west with the enemy being mostly tied up to the south by the bridge and along the highway to the east... when suddenly my attack force all promptly moved back into the forest to their original FUP and went to sleep! Granted I did have them set to "normal", but I thought that only made them rest at night (this was around noon)?

Anyways, it seemed a bit strange. Stopping forward movement in the town sure, but running back nearly a kilometer across the bridge and back into the forest?

I didn't touch the units or the HQ commanding the attack from when I gave the order around 3AM (with rest set to "normal" so it wouldn't start till dawn)

Regardless I'm really enjoying the new engine and the AI continues to really impress me.

What was their fatigue when the order was issued?

In effect, you need some "reserve strength" in the fatigue measures for new orders to be completed successfully before the troops "hit the wall" and demand rest (in effect catching their breath during the day).

My experience is that the "normal rest" setting doesn't necessarily mean universal "sleep until dawn", but accounts for a normal allowance of time (I anticipate 8 hours in each 24) to insure reduction of fatigue to manageable levels.

That setting often leads to a night's rest with major formations which have been pushing since dawn, but that's because the AI uses a form of "economy of force" and retaining a reserve for active orders assuring not all units are expending their energy allowance (and ammunition) at once.

Defense is a little more tricky for the AI since units can be forced to fight or become suppressed by fire to increase their fatigue despite the AI's best efforts to maintain combat capability.

I'll be interested to see how something like fatigue effects is altered when the Soviet Doctrine is implemented. Western literature on the Soviet Army indicates that Soviet troops were treated as mules -- spent until they could give no more -- to first blunt the Axis advances and then to wear out Axis defenders during the counterattack.

[vandorenp]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
...our earlier experience before we had the rest at night settings was that players would never rest their troops and that is not realistic.

Yes that is not realistic if units are never rested and still continue to fully perform forever. What is realistic is when this happens performance drops off eventually to zero most of the time but not always. Commanders and/or the enemy however push our troops to the breaking point all the time. The breaking point may or may not be reached.

George C Marshall wrote in his WWI memoir...
"But war is a ruthless taskmaster, demanding success regardless of confusion, shortness of time, and paucity of tools. Exact justice for the individual and a careful consideration of his rights is quite impossible. One man sacrifices his life on the battlefield and another sacrifices his reputation elsewhere, both in the same cause. The hurly-burly of the conflict does not permit commanders to draw fine distinctions; to succeed, they must demand results, close their ears to excuses, and drive subordinates beyond what would ordinarily be considered the limit of human capacity." My reading of unit actions and experience as a rifle company commander is consistent with Marshall's conclusion. Dave, if your realism was the rule the Marines would never have made it out of the Chosun Reservoir. Much depends on the quality of the leaders and the desperation or motivation of the soldiers.

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
... So we automatically rest them for you although we do give you the power to override the normal rest at night time.

If you turn rest off the units appropriately peter out eventually. Equally appropriate and better would be the rest period be automatically driven or curtailed by the player's set order time without the player having to artificially turn off rest. The troops catch what rest they can while the troop leading procedures are underway. The "platoon sergeants" automatically wake the troops up just in time. I and my troops experienced this many many times. To state this another way, the player should be able issue the order without fooling with toggling a switch and know the troops are going to get as much rest as the H-hour allows. If the player experience also included interaction with subordinates over the issue of rest and ability to go on then all the better. Another Marchall quote is appropriate...

"Daily in the Muese-Argonne, officers were assigned to command of regiments, brigades, divisions, or other important positions to replace casualties, some of which were not due to the enemy. Frequently, they took over their duties in a situation which might be characterized as a bad mess; their officers and troops were scattered about on the terrain, under the fire of the enemy; deficiencies and special difficulties had to be ascertained. yet there was rarely time for a pause in which to size up officers and the troops, check over the supplies and material, and make a calm survey of the situation. Action was demanded and often within the first hour... A renewed attack was usually required the following morning. It should be obvious that the successful handling of such situations required a very special type of man...."

[dazkaz15]

I'm with vandorenp on this one.

I think rest in the game is an un-necessary mechanic, that can all be driven by fatigue.

Troops that have been in the field for more than a few days soon get into the routine of catching sleep/rest/food whenever they stop be that night or day.

Tired troops don't need it to be dark to rest properly, so I see no need to penalise the resting during the day as it is in game at the moment.

I never had any problem falling asleep within minutes, after spending all night on the move.

I even fell asleep in a stress position, while blindfolded against the wall, during interrogation training, after a four day no sleep escape and evasion exercise once.

My point is that there is no need to have an automatic rest when it gets dark, as troops get used to catching rest whenever they are stationary, and not in contact with the enemy.

There should be an automatic rest when not moving, and not in contact with the enemy, that can be handled behind the scenes without needing player input via the UI.

Troops ordered to move should do so regardless of if its dark or not, with an enforced rest if their fatigue gets to high.

Any unit with no orders or stationary for more than 15 min, would automatically go into a sentry rotation, routine with some resting, and others observing.

Any unit attacked would automatically wake any sleeping.

Artillery units when not on fire missions, or moving would be on a sentry rotation routine.

So I don't see any reason to have the rest button in the game at all.

It's just another unnecessary mouse click.

[dazkaz15]

Ok, I stand corrected over the fact that you can sleep as well during the day as you can at night.

There is an in depth write up on it here:

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/view ... /chap4.htm

That looks like Dave/Panther Games, must have read this before introducing the rest mechanic into the game.

[vandorenp]

Yes I can see that day time recovery would not be as good. Nevertheless I still believe the resting should be a background function which reasonably models how units were commanded then rather than the best practices we are certain of today. Currently the arty automatically rests between fire missions. Something similar should be operating for the other units.

i don't think that our system could replicate very well the run by the 116th Panzer Division from the 18th of Dec on. Nor of the 560th VG Div following it.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: vandorenp

Yes I can see that day time recovery would not be as good. Nevertheless I still believe the resting should be a background function which reasonably models how units were commanded then rather than the best practices we are certain of today. Currently the arty automatically rests between fire missions. Something similar should be operating for the other units.

i don't think that our system could replicate very well the run by the 116th Panzer Division from the 18th of Dec on. Nor of the 560th VG Div following it.

If there's a means to measure force health and the adverse affects it may have on an operation, there should be a means to concentrate on remediation of force health issues before that operation.

Part of the commander's craft is understanding the capabilities of his forces and choosing appropriately among those capabilities for accomplishment of missions.