Arnhem - How far away could those SS divisions have been?

[dazkaz15]

It's obviously a bit late now, with a whole Bn of SS there, but if you where to re play the game is there any way you can maintain control of the North bank to secure your supply line over the bridge?

Would love a save of your game if your ok about sharing it?

[Phoenix100]

Cheers Daz. It's a modded From the Meuse to the Rhine. I can send you the .cos file and you can play it through. It's a huge 10 day scenario though. Be warned.! Have many saves - but not sure which would interest you? If I send you one from around 6.30pm day 1 then that's somewhat before the heavies arrive over the river there.

Can I secure it? You mean the north bank of the Rijn. I have, basically, 12Bns up there in Arnhem, and 9 down in Nijmegan, all dropped/landed on day 1. It's a significant force and you can do what you want with the north bank, for sure, because the initial opposition is less than that. You can easily have a much deeper bridgehead up there. But there's a huge weight of German forces coming, including armour, and having a deeper bridgehead doesn't stop your front line units being interdicted by the weight of opposition beyond the flot. Wherever you put the flot the front line units will not get re-supplied once the German mass takes camp opposite you. This does, of course, seem somewhat realistic to me. At least, it seems realistic that only man portable supplies would dribble through, as Arjuna has said - and that's not modelled. But, to be honest, even if it were modelled, it wouldn't change much, because the basic problem remains that your 12 Bns are outnumbered and outgunned (the Axis has armour). A dribble of ammo won't change that.

They are outnumbered because, wherever you place the SEPs and bases you will not have enough, from 12 Bns, to both secure the bases and SEPs and have an effective counterweight at the flot. You have to place the SEPs and bases a reasonable distance from your projected flot, otherwise you just get the columns from SEP to base being interdicted by the enemy presence beyond the flot, but if you place them, say, 3km away, then you can only guarantee the supply lines by using about two thirds of your force for that and the perimeter. Leaves just 4 Bns for your bridgehead. These are the rough figures, and this is playing a modded version of historical reality which stacks everything in your favour.

My conclusion is that you cannot avoid getting massacred - or rather, you can avoid it only by running and abandoning your bridgeheads. The Nijmegan bridgehead has to hold for about 4 days (actually 5 more realistic). It's 5 or 6 days before you can get any of XXX Corps up to Arnhem. Its an interesting lesson in how futile and insane the historical plan was, I think. Essentially because of an underestimate of Axis opposition.

So, if you want the .cos, or any saves, I'm happy to send. What's your email?

Be delighted to see you prove me wrong and teach me how to win it.

[dazkaz15]

I doubt very much if I will be able to teach you anything mate, but you have me very interested.

I have not abandoned my Elsenborn Ridge AAR BTW, I'm just having a rest for a bit.
I got a bit of writers cramp lol

I think I am going to go straight for the operational plan next then start the battle.
Ill fill in the friendly forces as the battle progresses.

Still making the most of the nice evenings here at the moment though. I have all winter where I can spend evenings in the Office with the log fire on writing up the AAR.

Have sent you a PM with my email

[Phoenix100]

Have PMd you the files, Daz. Love to see how you do!

[dazkaz15]

This is a continuation of the saved game that phoenix sent me, of his modified scenario.
As I don’t have much time, and to test the feasibility of a plan I have in mind I have only been concentrating on the Arnhem battle, and neglecting the rest of the map to a degree.
If it works out ok then I will attempt to play the whole scenario.

The trouble is it would be a major investment of time as this scenario is huge!

[Phoenix100]

Fascinating, Daz. Cheers! I'm amazed you got 10 para so far out, across that bridge. And how did you get those ammo depleted units of 2 para and the indep co to move at all??!! Are they still out of ammo, or did emergency resupply get through? That's what I'd like to know. As a plan this is more or less exactly what I'm trying in my third run-through - a deeper beachhead with suppression on the sth bank, but I'm still at day 1, so haven't seen the results yet. As I said - key is whether ammo gets through to the moved flot, otherwise it's not a solution at all. Can you check, please?

[Phoenix100]

Well, maybe you're right, Daz. I think it all comes down to weight of firepower. I'm running through a slightly changed scenario and this is what it looks like start of day 2. The beautiful green boxes indicate a supply line!!

[dazkaz15]

Yes they were in supply mate.

I think the abstracted nature of supply in the game at the moment though does not work well for Airborne operations.
Due to the nature of this type of operations, it is very hard to maintain a cohesive defensive line, to protect the route that the AI takes with supplies.

This is because the defensive line needs to be 360deg around your area of operations, due to the fact that you start the scenario surrounded, as is the nature of airborne operations.

The big problem is we have no indication of what route the supply columns will take, or any way to divert it to a longer but safer alternative route.
We have no way to escort it, and get no indication of where it has been intercepted along its invisible route.

One of the biggest problem with airborne depots though is the very small number of vehicles it has to carry the supplies.
So when the inept drivers decide to drive through the same enemy infested route, again and again, that pool of vehicles quickly gets depleted.
What happens then as far as I am aware (I have not tested this yet), is that the entire elite airborne brigade is totally destroyed or becomes completely non combat effective, because of a few incompetent supply column commanders.

Supply is such a critical thing in nearly every battle, and especially so in this type of operation, that is seems crazy that it is entirely abstracted out, without any control at all over it.

For future versions of the game I recommend that at a minimum we:

1, Be able to see the supply route that is being taken to the unit from the depot, and the return on a supply overlay.
2, Have an indication of where the column was intercepted, or destroyed on the map.
3, Are able to completely suspend supply to a unit.

If at all possible we should be able to (as an option):

1, Change the route that the supply will take to a unit.
2, Change the supplying base, at a penalty to? <insert parameter to penalize>
3, Be able to dispatch a special supply column as a counter that we can control, and maybe even up gun with assets drawn from the depot.
4, Choose when to send for more supplies. (request emergency supplies button)

[Phoenix100]

Couldn't agree more, Daz. Those things would add heaps of realism and control. It is absurd when - as you say - elite forces are left without supply and useless due to jeep drivers insisting on going up the big red route instead of another trail, clear of enemy, that you could have picked for them.

Incidentally, as I play on in the above scenario units are beginning to show red supply boxes at the flot, and I am beginning to get more 100% interdicted messages, as the enemy moves closer and engages. In other words, making a bridgehead deeper seems to have made sure the trucks could get across the bridge, but they STILL get interdicted as they approach the front lines, at the other side of the bridge, if there is sufficient enemy beyond the flot (I can't see where the interdiction occurs, of course, but I'm guessing this, since units nearer the bridge, but still at the far side of it, remain in supply if they're slightly further away from the flot). Same problem I mentioned above, in other words. If it is a problem, as I said. Maybe that's just reality. But that would mean, I think, that it would be highly desirable to add to your list of supply changes for Dave to consider an ability to click a button which instructs the supply boss to only push through man-ported supply to designated troops. This would be less supply than usual, of course, but might keep them from surrendering when they run out of ammo, and might save those jeeps. As it is at the moment all your suggested changes won't stop you losing trucks because the columns get interdicted right there, when they reach the destination troops, if those troops are under sufficient pressure from weight of enemy beyond the flot.

[dazkaz15]

Yes, I have been experiencing the same thing mate.

I actually lost nearly all my supply Jeeps to 1 Parachute Brigade, in the Arnhem bridge-head in one single routine resupply event.
The entire message tab filled with yellow 100% destroyed messages for what seemed like forever, at the time.

Not good because I was really starting to get into that scenario. Actually I think I will still keep dabbling at it when I get time, just to see how the Guards get on.

I wonder why it seems to be more of a problem in this scenario, than others?
The nature of the flat terrain perhaps? I would like to say its because its harder to secure a supply line, but that does not seem to make much of a difference.

As you say, the vehicles still seem to get destroyed just for being in contact with the enemy, even with a clear route back to the Depot, which I expect you checked just like me by surrendering.

[Phoenix100]

Checked by surrendering, yes. The supply line is clear. It's interdiction from beyond the flot. I posted about it again in the other thread. Seems absurd, in a way, because if I have sufficient weight of troops that the enemy can't dislodge me, then I don't think they should have sufficient weight (by comparison) to automatically interdict all my supplies. And if they do then why aren't my front line troops interdicting all theirs, which doesn't seem to be the case?

It is interesting that it's just in this scenario I've noticed it. I'm going to stop playing this scenario because it's so huge everything takes ages to test. I'll try to get something similar going in something smaller.

[dazkaz15]

Well I was wondering if the effective range of the enemy units you are facing has an impact on this as well.

Say you are an infantry Coy in an entrenched position, facing a an armoured panzer Coy.
Your men would be concealed in cover, but the newly arriving supply column would not have that protection, it would also be more visible as its moving. If the road leading to the position was exposed in any position for up to 3 km behind you it may be possible for the enemy panzers to interdict that supply at that point.

Of course we have no idea with abstracted supply where that point is!

It would be preferable in this situation for the supply commander to use more initiative, to call of the resupply, or find alternative routes, or manhandle it the remaining distance. Especially where the supply system is abstracted, and we have no control, over timings, or any way to stop the resupply being sent.

This is quite a tricky thing to try to get right, and I'm sure it has, and still will give Dave a few headaches, and late nights to come