OT: Battleship Bismarck

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42129
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JeffK



I suppose it finds the same category as "How many IJN Carriers did the USN sink at Midway"
warspite1

JeffK by this comment are you recalling the "debate" from the World In Flames forum?

It was pointed out to me by a poster some time ago that although the Bismarck was sunk, all the honour and glory in that engagement fell to the Germans because the RN didn't actually sink the Bismarck.

He would not accept any argument to the contrary and I pointed out that under his way of thinking, Midway was a glorious victory to the IJN [8|].

He still couldn't see it though....
We were joking about those sort of exchanges, honest! [:D]
warspite1

Sadly the person I had the debate with on the WIF forum was not.....[8|]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sadly the person I had the debate with on the WIF forum was not.....[8|]
I've been party/observer to similar discussions here. The details vary, the mindlessness rarely varies.
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 42129
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sadly the person I had the debate with on the WIF forum was not.....[8|]
I've been party/observer to similar discussions here. The details vary, the mindlessness rarely varies.
warspite1

[:)]

I suppose if you take the analogy to its limit then those people can always argue the Allies did not win the Second World War; after all they did not bring Hitler to account. The glory and the honour goes to Adolf as he scuttled himself [:D][;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by witpqs »

[:D]
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by denisonh »

Is somebody trying to resurrect the Bismarck thread? That thing went on forever (until the "The Thread" redefined forever...)
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Is somebody trying to resurrect the Bismarck thread? That thing went on forever (until the "The Thread" redefined forever...)
No it didn't.

Yes it did.

Oh wait, is this the abuse department?

No, this is argument, abuse is down the hall! [:D]
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by denisonh »

Nice reference. The Bismarck thread was the forum incarnation of the "Argument Clinic"
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25218
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: denisonh

Nice reference. The Bismarck thread was the forum incarnation of the "Argument Clinic"

And while we are at it let us not forget: [;)]

- the "Zero" vs. "Wildcat" thread

- the "Sherman" vs. "Tiger" thread

[8D]


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
JeffroK
Posts: 6416
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by JeffroK »

I suppose it brings up that it was fairly standard practice for a Navy to scuttle its cripples rather than allow the enemy to discover any "secrets"

If I recall correctly a number of USN & RAN ships were scuttled after Savo Island.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
User avatar
LoBaron
Posts: 4775
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by LoBaron »

Since Bismarck was sunk it does not really matter though, does it? [8D]
Image
User avatar
witpqs
Posts: 26376
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Argleton

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Since Bismarck was sunk it does not really matter though, does it? [8D]
[:D]
User avatar
AW1Steve
Posts: 14525
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:32 am
Location: Mordor aka Illlinois

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by AW1Steve »

Sunk, scuttled , or sunkled. Does it matter? The damned thing is on the bottom and likely to remain! Either the British sank her , or the Germans screwed up so badly that they had to sink her. Which is more insulting to the Germans? I think they will settle for sunk, as should we. [:D]
User avatar
Chickenboy
Posts: 24642
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by Chickenboy »

No! Absolutely not! You're all wrong! WRONG WRONG WRONG*! [:@]







*I don't really know what about, it just seemed that this thread was lacking in the venomous conviction of the previous Bismarck thread.


Image
User avatar
LoBaron
Posts: 4775
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Sunk, scuttled , or sunkled. Does it matter? The damned thing is on the bottom and likely to remain! Either the British sank her , or the Germans screwed up so badly that they had to sink her. Which is more insulting to the Germans? I think they will settle for sunk, as should we. [:D]

Steve, I suggest you treat this topic with due respect. It is of undisputable importance - and a matter of honor - to know if certain perforations were made from inside out or outside in. Obviously Chickenboy is aware of that, even if he got all the other facts wrong. You are NOT! If you are unable to comply please leave immediately.

Should you OTOH choose to participate in this debate of global importance, please keep your temper at bay. You have a long history of rude behaviour, and you overract to the slightest provocation. [:-]
Image
User avatar
LargeSlowTarget
Posts: 4908
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Sunk, scuttled , or sunkled. Does it matter? The damned thing is on the bottom and likely to remain! Either the British sank her , or the Germans screwed up so badly that they had to sink her. Which is more insulting to the Germans? I think they will settle for sunk, as should we. [:D]

Steve, I suggest you treat this topic with due respect. It is of undisputable importance - and a matter of honor - to know if certain perforations were made from inside out or outside in. Obviously Chickenboy is aware of that, even if he got all the other facts wrong. You are NOT! If you are unable to comply please leave immediately.

Should you OTOH choose to participate in this debate of global importance, please keep your temper at bay. You have a long history of rude behaviour, and you overract to the slightest provocation. [:-]

Hear, hear!

Most Germans (well, those interested in the topic - most Germans simply don't care) prefer to believe Bismarck was scuttled after a gallant fight against impossible odds, outnumbered and unmaneuverable as she was.

In any navy, it is a point of pride and honor not to allow your ship to fall into the hands of the enemy.

Of course, they scuttled her before the British could sink her with more torps or carrier air strikes.

German capital ships have a tradition of being sturdier than their British counterparts (see the battle cruisers at Jutland) and most of those Germans who care take a perverse pride in the fact the British guns were unable to penetrate the side armor and the torpedoes failed to sink the Bismarck - must be pride in German engineering and "quality made in Germany".

This battle wasn't a screw-up, it was a tragedy - as much as the sinking of the Hood. The damage to the rudder was just bad luck, otherwise Bismarck would have escaped to Brest - to be sunk (or scuttled) later, eventually. 2104 German and 1416 British sailors died in this sad affair, so some respect should be observed.
User avatar
AW1Steve
Posts: 14525
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:32 am
Location: Mordor aka Illlinois

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Sunk, scuttled , or sunkled. Does it matter? The damned thing is on the bottom and likely to remain! Either the British sank her , or the Germans screwed up so badly that they had to sink her. Which is more insulting to the Germans? I think they will settle for sunk, as should we. [:D]

Steve, I suggest you treat this topic with due respect. It is of undisputable importance - and a matter of honor - to know if certain perforations were made from inside out or outside in. Obviously Chickenboy is aware of that, even if he got all the other facts wrong. You are NOT! If you are unable to comply please leave immediately.

Should you OTOH choose to participate in this debate of global importance, please keep your temper at bay. You have a long history of rude behaviour, and you overract to the slightest provocation. [:-]

Pssssssssssssssssssssssttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
AW1Steve
Posts: 14525
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:32 am
Location: Mordor aka Illlinois

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Sunk, scuttled , or sunkled. Does it matter? The damned thing is on the bottom and likely to remain! Either the British sank her , or the Germans screwed up so badly that they had to sink her. Which is more insulting to the Germans? I think they will settle for sunk, as should we. [:D]

Steve, I suggest you treat this topic with due respect. It is of undisputable importance - and a matter of honor - to know if certain perforations were made from inside out or outside in. Obviously Chickenboy is aware of that, even if he got all the other facts wrong. You are NOT! If you are unable to comply please leave immediately.

Should you OTOH choose to participate in this debate of global importance, please keep your temper at bay. You have a long history of rude behaviour, and you overract to the slightest provocation. [:-]

Hear, hear!

Most Germans (well, those interested in the topic - most Germans simply don't care) prefer to believe Bismarck was scuttled after a gallant fight against impossible odds, outnumbered and unmaneuverable as she was.

In any navy, it is a point of pride and honor not to allow your ship to fall into the hands of the enemy.

Of course, they scuttled her before the British could sink her with more torps or carrier air strikes.

German capital ships have a tradition of being sturdier than their British counterparts (see the battle cruisers at Jutland) and most of those Germans who care take a perverse pride in the fact the British guns were unable to penetrate the side armor and the torpedoes failed to sink the Bismarck - must be pride in German engineering and "quality made in Germany".

This battle wasn't a screw-up, it was a tragedy - as much as the sinking of the Hood. The damage to the rudder was just bad luck, otherwise Bismarck would have escaped to Brest - to be sunk (or scuttled) later, eventually. 2104 German and 1416 British sailors died in this sad affair, so some respect should be observed.


"Pride of engineering"=over engineered. [:D] All war is a tragedy . Let's not overcome with morbidity what was put out in good humor. Otherwise we might as well shut down 90% of the threads, and all put on sack cloth and ashes. There are many threads that pay respect to all sides of the great tragedy that is known as WW2. This isn't one of them.


When Bismarck (or Prince Eugene) scores on Hood , it's a "brilliant shot". When a Swordfish scores on Bismarck , "it's a lucky shot"?

It's all lucky for some , and unlucky for others. It all depends on your point of view. [:D]
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by Dili »

2104 German and 1416 British sailors

2200 vs 1400

Why such a big discrepancy in crew numbers between Bismarck and Hood ?
User avatar
tigercub
Posts: 2026
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:25 pm
Location: brisbane oz

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by tigercub »

Bismarck newer more complex and a bigger ship...


Tigercub
Image
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
Dili
Posts: 4742
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:33 pm

RE: OT: Battleship Bismarck

Post by Dili »

In length Hood was bigger. More complex to warrant 30% more crew?
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”