Niche game or undermarketed?

[starmonkey]

Distant Worlds 2 can be designed to include both worlds i.e. the existing audience and the broader Strategy market.

Sounds good to me - and hopefully they use a game engine that supports Linux

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Distant Worlds 2 can be designed to include both worlds i.e. the existing audience and the broader Strategy market.

Hopefully they'll look at Unity before slogging away at building their own engine from scratch.

[Icemania]

Good point Kayoz.

At this rate, by the time they get around to Distant Worlds 2, they could have a lot more competition. Maybe I'm an optimist, but the current crop of 4X games is the weakest I can remember, so surely someone will take advantage and initiate some serious 4X projects in the next few years. Look at Star Citizen in a supposedly small and dead genre not unlike 4X. $21M in funding, massive publicity, and we hope a great game on the way.

Fortune favours the bold.

[whiran]

For some reason I felt curious to see where Distant Worlds was at and how Matrix was coming along with their plans for the game so I popped on by.

Kayoz, I didn't reply because, simply put, I don't agree at a fundamental level in regards to there not being enough profit in bringing a game like Distant Worlds to Steam. For whatever reason you seem to believe that Matrix thinks that is the wrong decision and, rightfully, you believe them over some random Internet person. As such, there is no value to belabor the point. I wrote my bit and that's that. I will note that what I was writing about was profit and not revenue. I am very aware of the difference but I appreciate your enthusiasm in clarifying the difference.

I don't think Distant Worlds is at the end of its product life cycle. There is a huge untapped market of people who have never heard about this game. The game appears to be at a stage where someone who enjoys 4x type games would be able to pick it up and run with it without encountering major problems or suffering from a terrible UI. At least that is the sense I got from watching Let's Plays on the game but maybe the players were just really familiar with the game and, as such, masked any major issues.

Graphics have been proven to be of lesser concern for many gamers with games such as Terraria doing extremely well. Even new games such as Prison Architect have been doing very well for themselves. If a game's graphics have a style and charm then people are happy to play with them. Personally, I didn't think that Distant World's graphics were bad when I watched video of it. Like many gamers I'm more interested in gameplay than graphics.

What I was curious about: How are the plans for the "gold" version of Distant Worlds coming?

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: whiran
I don't agree at a fundamental level in regards to there not being enough profit in bringing a game like Distant Worlds to Steam.

You're free to write your own game and put it up for sale on Steam. Telling Matrix that they should do so is, in my opinion, inappropriate. You run your business, let them run theirs.

ORIGINAL: whiran
you believe them over some random Internet person.

Whom I believe is irrelevant. My position is simple - it's their business, it's their decision. I don't believe it's appropriate for you to tell them how to run their own business.

I don't tell you how to floss your teeth. Me criticising your flossing habits is no different from you criticizing their business decisions.

ORIGINAL: whiran
I will note that what I was writing about was profit and not revenue.

Really? So, why did each and every one of your references point to statements on revenue? If you are aware, as you claim, of the differences - then how is it that the difference fails to arise in a SINGLE one of your statements?

ORIGINAL: whiran
I don't think Distant Worlds is at the end of its product life cycle. There is a huge untapped market of people who have never heard about this game.

My interpretation of "end of life" is more influenced by the product's ability to generate revenue - in DW's case - through the sale of expansion packs. I've gotten the impression from Erik and Elliot's posts and interviews that DW has gone far beyond it's initial design. So, each expansion is stretching a code base that wasn't designed with the changes in mind. Thus - it's time for a rewrite, thus DW2 is the next logical step.

That said, I could be wrong. Only Elliot can say whether or not his code can continue to be adapted to the increasing demands of each expansion. To say nothing of the inefficiencies in his choice of libraries (eg: graphics).

ORIGINAL: whiran
The game appears to be at a stage where someone who enjoys 4x type games would be able to pick it up and run with it without encountering major problems or suffering from a terrible UI. At least that is the sense I got from watching Let's Plays on the game but maybe the players were just really familiar with the game and, as such, masked any major issues.

In a word: yes

(yes, "let's play" videos were too short and failed to encounter many of the major issues (too lengthy to mention here) - though to be fair, that's not what they were made to address)

ORIGINAL: whiran
Graphics have been proven to be of lesser concern for many gamers with games such as Terraria doing extremely well.

It's not the lack of flashy graphics that people are complaining about, or few that I've seen. It's mainly the amount of processing of the graphics that the CPU has to do which could be shifted onto the GPU, which is causing the game to slow down excessively in late-game large-galaxy games. But as stated above, that's likely going to require a re-write.

But that said, clean and more appealing graphics will be simpler to implement with a real graphics library. So it should be relatively simple to make the game far prettier with little dev or financial cost, with a re-write and re-design.

ORIGINAL: whiran
Like many gamers I'm more interested in gameplay than graphics.

Sadly, we're the minority. In the larger marketplace, pretty graphics is a selling point. Which I don't have a problem with, if it's done without a detrimental impact on gameplay.

ORIGINAL: whiran
What I was curious about: How are the plans for the "gold" version of Distant Worlds coming?

Erik has hinted that it might be on their roadmap, but nothing specific. Personally, I'd expect it when they're focussing on DW2 and have no further plans for DW.

[buncheesy]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Surely it's time to go bold on Distant Worlds 2. Prima facie the broader Strategy market is ripe for the taking. Stardrive ... meh. Endless Space ... meh. A new Imperium Galactica ... dead. Total War Rome 2 ... LOL. Everything else on the horizon ... meh.

Distant Worlds 2 can be designed to include both worlds i.e. the existing audience and the broader Strategy market.

OK you convinced me [:)] Am changing my opinion. And thanks for saving me from buying Stardrive or Endles Space (played a lot of GalCivII and Distant worlds is a step up from that, unlike reports of the other games you mention)[;)]

[Baleur]

ORIGINAL: parkas3

Why do you call DW niche game? In my opinion its niche only by obscurity. For example another 4x Endless Space got over 300K sales. There is no reaction to release of Shadows on games news sites. People just don't know about it.

I know, i made a huge post about it like a year ago. Explaining how this game would sell like hotcakes if people who are fans of Galactic Civilizations, Endless Space etc actually KNEW IT EXISTED.

Pretty much it was met with "blabla do it yourself then, if you can make a good trailer" from the developer. [8|]

I love this game to death, but it's ridiculous to me how unbelievably un-ambitious the developer is, how ignorant they are of the power of marketing. You don't even need actual MONEY to do it, you just need to get the game in the hands of some popular youtubers already doing strategy games, heck maybe even some Eve Online guys since this game essentially is Eve Online - The Strategy Game.

Just need to submit it to Steam Greenlight.

But no, the developer isn't doing anything what so ever.
They are just relying on random people accidentally stumbling upon this website and finding the game.
Which is like setting up a clothing store in the middle of a country road in Siberia.

The only reason i ever found this game was because i ACCIDENTALLY saw a video on youtube about it that was like the only video of the beta version that existed on the internet, because i was intentionally trying to find another game i forgot the name of. It was a one in a million chance that i stumbled upon this game.
Otherwise i'd still not know about it! And i play games obsessively.



It definetly IS a niche game though, but so are many games that get sold like hotcakes.
Look at Paradox games like Crusader Kings 2 or Europa Universalis 4. Are you telling me they are more casual than Distant Worlds? Hardly, they are pretty much on the same level. Yet for some reason people think Distant Worlds wouldnt sell because it isn't a Call of Duty sequel?
Newsflash, this is 2013, strategy games sell!
If this was published by Paradox it would undoubtedly sell as much as their other games.
I mean it'd be the only space strategy game in their library, even EU4 players would take a look at it.
I guess maybe it is the Matrix Games publisher who's at fault for being unbelievably incompetent?

Maybe they just don't want it to sell more? Maybe they don't want the success of Endless Space etc?
Maybe they just want to chill out and not have so much pressure?
I really can't figure it out.

It reminds me alot of the Dwarf Fortress dev. That game could also skyrocket in popularity (even more) if they bothered to code a proper mouse driven interface and graphics engine (nothing more advanced than what Distant World does, for example).
Yet they also don't bother.

I guess some developers aren't that ambitious, despite sitting on an absolute gem that could secure their income for many years to come. [8|]

[Darkspire]

I mean it'd be the only space strategy game in their library, even EU4 players would take a look at it.

Paradox published GalCiv II [;)]

Your right about the advertising though, other than SpaceSector I have never ever seen an advert or that it exists anywhere else in the 2+ years I have been playing, I do my bit spreading the word on other forums, even posted memes with screenshots and got feedback asking what game it was and directed folks here, but really the whole advertising for DW just not exist, the point has been raised that there is a FaceBook page, that does not do anything unless you like or subscribe. DW needs some strategically placed adverts in places that catch folks eyes to bring new blood in.

Darkspire

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Baleur
...it's ridiculous to me how unbelievably un-ambitious the developer is, how ignorant they are of the power of marketing.

For all your business advice and supposed knowledge, I find it quite revealing that you blame the developer for what you see as the marketing failure of DW. Yet to the best of my knowledge, this is NOT the responsibility of the developer. That's the publisher's job. You're blaming Elliot/Code Force for not doing Matrix's job.

Well done. Your business knowledge and acumen is clearly shown to all. With that in mind, I shall give due attention to your other statements

ORIGINAL: Baleur
...

[CyclopsSlayer]

I heard about DW and Matrix through word of mouth from a comment made in voice comm one night. Even Space Sector is largely unknown, so advertising there is of minimal impact.
Steam or such would expose a MUCH larger audience. While I have no issue in paying for a game I like, I will admit that the single most common reason people give me to not try it when I try to spread the word is that it is too 'expensive'. Maybe a wider audience would allow for a reduced unit cost.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

Steam or such would expose a MUCH larger audience.

[Osito]

[Post deleted - added nothing to the discussion]

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Distant Worlds 2 can be designed to include both worlds i.e. the existing audience and the broader Strategy market.

Hopefully they'll look at Unity before slogging away at building their own engine from scratch.

I'm sorry but Unity doesn't really specialise in 2d graphic implementation, it is a closed source 3d game engine and wouldn't be appropriate for DW. Wanna tweak the engine - you can't. So, you have to write plug-ins that ...

Additionally, IIRC it doesn't use 64bit as yet and its multi-threading is not complete (or secure); therefore DW would be stuck with 32bit memory utilization. Just look at other projects such as KSP that have run into this problem and have a heck of a job getting around the limitations. I kinda chuckled when I heard Zero (Stardrive) was going from XNA(sunburn) to Unity because he thinks it will solve all his coding problems.

Don't get me wrong Unity is good for some projects and for quick mock ups. Elliot has shown he knows more about making and using game engines than you or I.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: n01487477
I'm sorry but Unity doesn't really specialise in 2d graphic implementation, it is a closed source 3d game engine and wouldn't be appropriate for DW.

Agreed, it is overkill for DW's model. But given the number of problems related to graphics optimization and font display issues, using Unity would help ameliorate these problems and let Elliot concentrate on the core game instead of trying to work around Windows GDI limitations.

Edit:
They moved to XNA with Shadows (earlier?) which sucks less - but it's hardly an optimal solution.

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Wanna tweak the engine - you can't. So, you have to write plug-ins that ...

Yup. And Unity has a great deal of support for plugins. I see this as a non-issue.

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Additionally, IIRC it doesn't use 64bit as yet and its multi-threading is not complete (or secure); therefore DW would be stuck with 32bit memory utilization. Just look at other projects such as KSP that have run into this problem and have a heck of a job getting around the limitations. I kinda chuckled when I heard Zero (Stardrive) was going from XNA(sunburn) to Unity because he thinks it will solve all his coding problems.

I wouldn't assert that it is the panacea for all of DW's problems. I am merely stating that it's worth looking at, so that Elliot might focus his development time more towards the gameplay, mechanics and balance rather than having to wrestle with hand-optimizing his code.

I don't accept that 32-bit memory limit is a serious impediment to DW's development. Judicious design and imaginative use of file swapping for the stuff which isn't needed should allow DW to be more than workable within 3.5g of Win32 memory. I don't see how DW requires 64-bit memory. Sure, it'd be nice - but many games out there have managed.

I'm not sure what you mean by multi-threading not being secure. What does security have to do with multi-threading?

Edit:
I'm really unclear as to what your issue is with threading. Unity seems to handle threading well enough. If your code isn't thread-safe, then that's your fault, not Unity's. What's your point?

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Don't get me wrong Unity is good for some projects and for quick mock ups. Elliot has shown he knows more about making and using game engines than you or I.

I don't claim to know more than Elliot about game engines. My position is simply that it's worth looking into. I do not know what his plans are with regards to DW2, so I have no idea whether or not Unity would be worth the investment.

As for "some projects and quick mock ups" - I believe the evidence is against that statement. There are quite a few commercial games using Unity. You might note that there are a few 2D games on that list, so regardless of whether or not Elliot needs the full oomph of Unity, it might help speed up development by letting him concentrate on the game instead of technical issues which take up a disproportionate amount of his time.

Regardless, I believe it's worth considering. The decision is his/Matrix's. I'm just throwing it out there in case they haven't considered it.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: n01487477
I'm sorry but Unity doesn't really specialise in 2d graphic implementation, it is a closed source 3d game engine and wouldn't be appropriate for DW.

Agreed, it is overkill for DW's model. But given the number of problems related to graphics optimization and font display issues, using Unity would help ameliorate these problems and let Elliot concentrate on the core game instead of trying to work around Windows GDI limitations.

[/quote]
Round hole, square peg Mate.

I could go round to round with you, toe to toe ... but why bother ?

I've used the engine, I've used others - you pick the engine that suits the project. And that engine should always have access to source...

End of ...

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

I've used the engine, I've used others...

Aah. And some of these engines had multi-threading security flaws?

I'm not saying that everything you said is BS - but nothing you said actually checked out. Not threading security - whatever the heck that is. Not plugin support. Not 32-bit memory addressing. Nothing. Not one of your objections was supported by fact.

And for all your supposed experience with game engines, you seem oddly silent on what might be a better fit. I threw out one example, you say it isn't appropriate - yet while claiming knowledge of alternatives - completely fail to suggest one. I trust that you can understand how I see this as odd.

ORIGINAL: n01487477
I could go round to round with you, toe to toe ... but why bother ?

Indeed. I might exploit one of the multi-threading security flaws you mentioned and leave you hakzored. Heaven forbid!

But seriously, this isn't going "toe-to-toe". If you have something to say which I might learn from, I'd love to hear it. None of your complaints has actually been supported by fact, so I think it's understandable that my current position is rather dubious of your claims to experience with game engines.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: n01487477
I kinda chuckled when I heard Zero (Stardrive) was going from XNA(sunburn) to Unity because he thinks it will solve all his coding problems.

Well, I had a little time, so I actually looked into this. Guess what I found? Some facts to support your claims? Guess again...

Here's his reasoning:

Reinvent the wheel:
"I wanted to use an IDE like Visual Studio and code everything from scratch. I didn’t understand these visual engines like UDK or Unity; I tried to understand them, but I lacked the foundational knowledge to understand their advantages. The result is that I ended up spending a lot of time reinventing the wheel for StarDrive."

More efficient use of his time:
"But Unity is the way of the future. I can’t emphasize enough how much faster it is to work in Unity, how many things just work that would otherwise take days of development time in .NET. So when I made the decision that I wanted to expand StarDrive, to bring in new content and game modes, it made so much more sense to me to just move to Unity now."

Cross-platform support:
"Future StarDrive games will be released not only for PC but for Mac and Linux as well, with the possibility of Android and iOS iterations just a short control-scheme change away."

Able to focus on developing the game, not minutae:
"My process is basically the same. There are artists scattered across the globe who are freelancing some top quality 2D and 3D art. I’m writing the code and integrating it all into a game. The only difference is that now I’m probably working three times faster with these new tools."


Full interview here: link

All that seems a far cry from your claim that "he thinks it will solve all his coding problems". He does not, in fact, seem to believe this. You later stated, "Elliot has shown he knows more about making and using game engines than you or I." - which seems to be disingenuous since you clearly claim superior knowledge over Zero. One assumption based on your own statements is that you believe Elliot to be far superior a game developer than Zero - and place yourself somewhere in-between. Or you're simply a hypocrite. I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and favour the second choice. But if you believe yourself to be a superior game developer to Zero, I would gladly see your portfolio of published games to refute this. What's that I hear? A deafening silence?

Well done. Business experts who can't tell the difference between profit and revenue. Marketing experts promising the land of milk and honey if Matrix takes DW to Steam. And now a guru developer who knows more about game development than Zero or Elliot. Well done, Damian - you have company you can fit in marvellously with. Introduce yourself and take a load off. You have many compatriots in this thread (and others) who share your self-image.

I'm very much tempted to scream "BULLSH!T" at this point, but I'll await your rebuttal.

[Anthropoid]

Matrix is a weird bunch, but then I guess I'm pretty weird, and most of you guys are weird too. Who knows why they follow the marketing and pricing schemes that they follow!? I'm sure not hear to preach at them nor to incur the "wraith of Kayoz." Indeed, I'm thankful that Matrix still exists, and many of my older classics that I still love to play (Forge of Freedom, Distant Worlds, Crown of Glory, Close Combat, etc., etc.) still have a supporting publisher. Plus there are a lot of really nice old timers on Matrix.

As much as I agree with pleas and entreaties that they modernize themselves by redefining their pricing sceme, getting more into 'mainstream' 2013 marketing, and making more games about "non-WWII Europe" themes, I've never seen much point in expressing it.

Lots of forumites have expressed it and it has never changed. Nonetheless, there it is: Matrix Games, still in business, partnering with other similar 'weird' (but lovable) publishers, and seemingly adding more and more and more titles to their portfolio.

As long as they stay in business and keep making good strategy games what do I care if they are going fulfilling all of their potential! [:'(] Sure, would be nice if they'd cut the price point on their games I could afford to buy more of them but, ah well. Still lots of old classics to revisit one more time [;)]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
... nor to incur the "wraith of Kayoz."

I'm really not that bad... am I?

I only really come out and slam people when they make absurd, demonstrably false or otherwise ridiculous statements. I don't think I've actually come down on anyone for making a rational and well thought out statement.

But for posts like the above - I've invited him to defend his assertions. I've cited Zero's own interview statements which refute his claims. I cited other sources which seem to prove his other claims to be false. I've called out his hypocrisy in denigrating Zero's decision whilst acknowledging that he knows less than Elliot. So is this an example of my "wrath"? I don't think so. He's made demonstrably false assertions, and despite my requests, completely failed to address a single one.

"Wrath" or "challenging/calling out idiots" - I suppose it depends on your point of view.

Of note, I would be most interested to get his feedback on his concerns about "thread security". It's not something I've ever heard of.

[Darkspire]

I'm really not that bad... am I?

[:D]