Axis armour can't shoot

[Phoenix100]

Well, I opened up the estab to try this, but then discovered that I had previously edited the wrong estab!!! BUT, the estab I have been using, it turns out, is WF-US Cavrecon trp. And that's already 'mixed'. So bang goes that theory. I think it's not a prob in the estab - or, at least, not THAT problem - but a prob in the code that determines either when to fire AP or HE. Repeat - in my experiments I was using B Company 82nd Arm recon Bn, and that is already 'mixed' in the stock estabs. And they still wouldn't fire HE at it!!!

What's your PM, simovitch? I'll send you the little .cos file and you can try it, if you like? Or maybe you don't need. All I did is adapt a map and pitch a company of Tigers or Panthers (modded to be 100% at everything) against B Co 82 Armrecon Bn (which, as I say, is already 'mixed' in the estab)

[navwarcol]

Thanks for clarifying, Phoenix.. I have changed all of the ones like that now (units which include both hard and soft parts) to be mixed... the only ones in the estab I found which did that, were units using American M3 or M8, which is most cases also did include infantry components and should have been mixed anyway... so for me, I think it did not hurt to change it anyway, it should have been so already I think... but as for this issue, yes, I still am having troubles as well firing HE at those same ones still...

[Phoenix100]

I've just tried a similar experiment with the COTA estab. I couldn't find anything like half tracks in the allied inventory, but used a motorized engineer unit, with trucks and motorbikes. Ranged some Panzer 2s against them and gave the Panzers maxed out 100% stats. In a twenty minute engagement in perfect conditions, with constant LOS, at about 1km range, closing to about 500m, the Panzers fired 2,000 mg rounds and 53HE shells. And hit nothing. A crack unit.

Until this is fixed then I think I'll only play infantry scenarios, if I can find any.

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I've just tried a similar experiment with the COTA estab. I couldn't find anything like half tracks in the allied inventory, but used a motorized engineer unit, with trucks and motorbikes. Ranged some Panzer 2s against them and gave the Panzers maxed out 100% stats. In a twenty minute engagement in perfect conditions, with constant LOS, at about 1km range, closing to about 500m, the Panzers fired 2,000 mg rounds and 53HE shells. And hit nothing. A crack unit.

Until this is fixed then I think I'll only play infantry scenarios, if I can find any.

[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

C'mon Simovitch, Lieste, Bletchley_Geek and all the others who are/were involved in dev/testing etc. check this out please!!!

thanks!

Rob.[:)]

[simovitch]

I'm checking this out, but I'm not 100% convinced anything is too greatly amiss. I just tested a Co. of Panthers against a mixed recon unit and yes, it fired off all of it's AP... but then fired off all of it's HE. It knocked out 4 armoured cars and score several personell casualties without losing anything. Also, Pz II's are not really that effective beyond 500m but I will test some of those as well.

The tanks have a setting in the estabs as having anti-armor as their "primary role" so that might explain some things. If you have bases that keep refilling the AP racks you may never see them fire off any HE. If this is the case then the estabs could maybe use some tweaking, but I need to do some more testing.

[navwarcol]

I have not had the severe issue Phoenix is mentioning.. only really with the specific matchups I mentioned. For the most part other than that, Panthers and Tigers are looking quite deadly, even considering that I never jump the stats to 100, either. For some units... the SS, Panzer Lehr... I do increase the training levels higher than stock... usually into the 80-88 range.... an entirely different issue for a different thread lol. There is also something to be said for combined arms, so for the most part "in game" I don't leave the panzers alone without infantry support, which perhaps is why I had not even noticed this issue until reading it in the post, and then specifically testing a non-supported panzer unit against a unit that actually was using combined arms in the scout M-8/M3 units which also included the infantry AT support, etc. I still believe there may be an issue here... while still thinking from every one of my own tests that it more than likely has to do with the target rather than the firing unit. However, I have seen them (the panzers) working quite well under "normal battlefield conditions", so would not rush to judgment.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks for looking at it, Simovitch. Did you get the PM I sent you, by the way? The email you sent me started with 'Simonitch'. Not sure if that was an error and should have been 'Simovitch'.

But surely a unit firing off all it's AP (that can be 300 shells) and killing four vehicles isn't right? Especially if all its stats are maxed out, but not only if. Someone with more historical data can jump in if they have info on average shots per kill, but what Daz and I have flagged up is something like 40 shots per kill in ideal conditions? It comes with additional issues too - because what happens, if I give an attack order which starts at, say, 1.5km out, for a company of Panthers, then they just keep closing and closing whilst they're firing off all their AP, and very quickly they're within the range of those combined arms AT elements that, when they started were useless. Then they start taking hits themselves. there's no standoff capability whilst they're expending all this AP. A Tiger or a Panther ought surely to be able to sit 1km back and pick off these halftracks and the like, unless they get out of the way? No?

And anyway, surely the difference if you pitch them against a company of Shermans is really indicative of the issue? If they're against Shermans they do a good job. As Navwarcol says, it's when they're fighting non-armoured targets (including wholly 'soft' targets)that they start to get through the ammo without effect.

And they always 'appear' fine to me under normal battle conditions too, navwarcol. Because under normal battle conditions I'm not usually counting their exact starting ammo quantities, surrendering, checking the opposition composition, re-loading, running it, doing it all again after the engagement etc. But I assume that they are doing exactly the same under normal battle conditions, however it looks when you're not checking properly. What you normally see when you're playing a scenario and Tigers approach an armrecon unit or such like is that there will be a short engagement and the armrecon unit will then run like hell. You don't normally then check what's happened with ammo etc because it looks like job done and you've got a lot more to keep your eyes on. But the armrecon units run like hell in my tests too. It's only by querying what's going on with more care and surrendering/saving a lot to check that you find out that they ran like hell without taking any casualties and meanwhile the crack 100% stats Tigers shot off 200AP rounds.

I admit that part of the issue seems like an issue with how a company works together. It seems to me that they can fire off 50 rounds in two minutes (as is typical) only if ALL of them are firing at once, without any simulation of tactics within the company, and so what might be happening is a kind of overkill due to that - a waste of ammo because more than one tank is hitting each unit. That's a separate issue, I think. Because if you run the tests with a couple of tanks only then the same thing happens. They will fire off, instead, 4 shots in 2 minutes and hit nothing. Under ideal conditions, a crack unit. That will then be repeated roughly every 5 minutes.

[dazkaz15]

I don't have time to play at the moment, but I have found an incredibly interesting video on this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-I239livXc

[altipueri]

Thanks for that link.

[simovitch]

OK so I put 4 panthers with full ammo racks in a little village with a defend order. The opposition was the WF US M8 75mm AG Troop unit.

The panthers wiped out most of the unit by direct fire before it finally surrendered. Both sides had bases feeding it supplies.

I will need to see your test scenarios to find out what is going on on your end.

[Phoenix100]

I already sent via PM, Richard. Plus 3 saves. You get it? That was a few days back.

[simovitch]

I played this test scenario out several times using various tactics and ROF's and I can see some problems, mainly with the lack of use of the HE shells to neutralize the US bazookas at long range. As far as accuracy it seems to be related to target size, which may account for the ability of the german tanks to take out M4's easier than M8's.

During the scenarios I reckon we don't notice these issues as much because of the combined arms effect of having several different weapon types available during an engagement.

I did have fair results when I approached slowly with minimum ROF with the PzV's. Good tactics will payoff in this game.

Anyway, I'll ask the programmers to take a look at this.

[Phoenix100]

Many thanks Richard.

[skarp]

Do you think it's a general problem targeting smaller vehicles? I've just had an unusual (to my mind near impossible!) result in my HTTR game. A SS Recon Coy AND a JgPz Platoon have just been forced to retreat by a single attacking Household cavalry Armoured Car Coy. The action was at night, in the city and in heavy fog which I thought would all have favoured my infantry over the armoured cars. To top it off the SS Recon Coy was entrenched and the JgPz platoon even lost a tank! I'm not familiar with the scenario maker or I would have re-created this to run a few times. If someone does, I will.

[Phoenix100]

Sounds wrong, of course. Can't see how a HC car could take out a jagdpanther, but I can't recall if they have bazookas? Do you know if they do?

Just spent a night in the Ardennes with a friend, in a great guest house in Grandmenil (right next to Manhay). We had a quick look at the Tiger in La Gleize and My God are they big things. The Panther in Grandmenil looked quite delicate by comparison. Can't imagine an armoured car doing anything much to either. BUT, it is really clear how really terrible their visibility is when you see the things in real life. It would be very easy to sneak up on them if they weren't supported, especially at night. We took a little (and excellent) 'tour' of the Grandmenil battle site (run by 'Bob' who does this website - www.grandmenil.com - highly recommended - he does La Glieze/Piper tours also) and Bob told us the Germans used a special non-stick paint for their armour. They used to coat tanks with it so satchel charges and the like wouldn't stick. It's one of the ways they can identify, still, if a recovered piece of metal is from an Axis tank, because you can still detect the non-stick coating 70 years later!

But I digress.

I'm in the middle of re-building my entire system due to 2 Trojans porking my registry, but once I've got time I'll put a Jagdpanther against an armoured car and let you know....

[skarp]

Thanks Phoenix for responding. I'd love to visit the Ardennes - one day (sigh) - glad you had a good time. In my case the victim was a Jagdpanzer IV (Panzer IV/70) rather than a Panther but I was surprised all the same and even more so by the ability to then force an entrenched motorised SS infantry unit to retreat. Mysterious to say the least. If you do knock together a quick scenario - I'm happy to test it. good luck with the rebuild - they're a pain in the arse but I'm nearly always pleased to have done cos the pc is magically as fast as new.

[Remmes]

Hey Phoenix,

Good to hear you had a good time in the Ardennes. It's funny that you feel that the Panther looks flimsy in comparison to the La Gleize King Tiger. I actually feel that the Panther 'feels' sturdier, but perception can be a strange thing.

I have some pics of the Panther in Breda which my boys always need to climb whenever I go there. It was given a big overhaul a couple of years ago and looks like it could drive away any minute.

[Remmes]

The Breda Panther

[Remmes]

Detail of the Breda Panther. Looks like something very heavy needs to hit it in order to do serious damage. It also has some 'Zimmerit' coating left on the back. This is the front of the turret where the gun is mounted.

[Remmes]

I found the Gleize Tiger to be not so impressive, but that may be caused by the sorry state it is in. The surrounding countryside is beautiful though. If I am not mistaken it was saved from the scrapyard because a local bought the tank for a bottle of whisky. The boys were very disappointed it was forbidden to climb the beast! Anyway it must have packed a considerable punch. Curious what you come up with when testing this issue further.......