Deadly Pz Ib

Silvarius · Post by **Silvarius** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 3:05 am

I've noticed that the killing power of the Pz Ib MG is almost twice the rate of any other MG, mounted or not (Kill : 22 for Pz Ib and 6 to 13 for the other types of units). What sort of MG had this Pz to kill infantry so effectively (I had up to 9 men killed in one salva). And if so effective, why was it not mounted on later vehicules ? A question of size ?

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 3:11 am

Notice one thing, it's two guns, not one. I love using that tank, it's perhaps one of the most cost-effective units in the game and too bad it's not available throughout the war.

Silvarius · Post by **Silvarius** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 3:19 am

Originally posted by Charles22:
Notice one thing, it's two guns, not one. I love using that tank, it's perhaps one of the most cost-effective units in the game and too bad it's not available throughout the war.

I totally agree.

Silvarius · Post by **Silvarius** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:13 am

Charles22, just a thought : 7TP dw (you generaly can meet huge number of them while fighting AI against Poland) has a TMG of the same caliber as Pz Ib. And if my memory doesn't fail me, their Kill stat is similar to the one of other tanks (not much more than 10 anyway. I cannot check as my gaming computer is sleeping at the moment). So there's perhaps actually something special regarding Pz Ib's TMG ...

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:53 am

Pz1 has twin MG's and most tanks need a morale check to fire their MG's at a target over 6 hexes away if the main gun is operational..rational being crew is ywo busy to do both under normal combat but get extra busy if enemy is close.. anyway at short ranges most any tank with 2 Mg's even firing seperately does better with the MG's if the main gun is off .. try it with brit tanks in 40 since the gun is ap only anyway ... just a thought ... and it ain't my fault if you forget to turn the main gun back on ...

Daniel Oskar · Post by **Daniel Oskar** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 8:26 am

I enjoy the Pz Ib vs infantry as well, but I noticed the early Pz III had 2 coaxial MG34 in the gun mantlet, but the game handles this with two separate CMG. Any ideas on this, or was it a design oversight?

Silvarius · Post by **Silvarius** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:05 pm

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
anyway at short ranges most any tank with 2 Mg's even firing seperately does better with the MG's if the main gun is off .. try it with brit tanks in 40 since the gun is ap only anyway

I usually turn the main gun off for at least a part of my tanks, unless facing huge armor assault. In the scenarios where much infantry is involved, I actually turn the gun off for most of the tanks, just leaving a couple of them "whole" for cover in case of ... But even so, they are far from matching the Pz Ib TMG.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:26 pm

This is a tough thing to model, for breakdown purposes, it should probably two seperate guns, but the effectiveness is better modelled with the two being combined as one, very tough.

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:32 pm

Silvarius: Well I wouldn't know about the Pole 7TP dw, having never used it, and it's not like they ever get shots in against my personnel very often anyway, when I play them, so my knowledge is null there, but it looks like it has potential. Now if Poland only had good enough tanks to where the dw could afford to roam around looking to take shots at personnel it would matter more. Maybe if one wanted to get wild and replace a PZIB with the dw, when upgrading, and have PZIB and dw shoot on equal terms, we could see.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Sat Feb 17, 2001 9:48 pm

Originally posted by Silvarius:
Charles22, just a thought : 7TP dw (you generaly can meet huge number of them while fighting AI against Poland) has a TMG of the same caliber as Pz Ib. And if my memory doesn't fail me, their Kill stat is similar to the one of other tanks (not much more than 10 anyway. I cannot check as my gaming computer is sleeping at the moment). So there's perhaps actually something special regarding Pz Ib's TMG ...

Silvarius, I think I get what you're saying, the 7TP has two seperate MG, not combined as the German PZ I?? Good point, if they are indeed bot mounted in the turret, then they should be combined. As far as the killing power, w/o my reference here at work, as to the stats of the Polish MG, I can't tell you, but the German MG's had a very high rate of fire, therefore more deadly a spread of lead in an area, this is what was modelled. Will need to look into the Polish mg's though, thanks!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:39 am

The 7dw. had two MG turrets firing independently.

The Pz1 had a twin MG, both guns firing at the same target at the same time.

Good Point about the PzIII with the 2 coaxial MG's- this is the same as some of the Grant tank versions.

Now, when you have two CMG's each gun will fire and each will get a dice roll for the kill. If one gun misses the second gun might hit. With a twin gun you only get one dice roll but if you score a hit, the damage is double.

My take on this is that if your tank has a twin CMG and a BMG you can fill all four weapon slots with single guns or fill slot two with a CMGx2 weapon and slot 4 with the BMG, leaving slot 3 empty.
Really, there is not a lot in it when the dust settles.

With the Grant tanks, they had 3 or 4 MG's so I was forced to use the CMGx2 weapon.

Greg McCarty · Post by **Greg McCarty** » Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:48 am

Originally posted by Silvarius:
I've noticed that the killing power of the Pz Ib MG is almost twice the rate of any other MG, mounted or not (Kill : 22 for Pz Ib and 6 to 13 for the other types of units). What sort of MG had this Pz to kill infantry so effectively (I had up to 9 men killed in one salva). And if so effective, why was it not mounted on later vehicules ? A question of size ?

The guns appear to be the 7.92mm MG34 in a dual mount. The design was dropped probably because by 1941 tank design was evolving so rapidly. No longer was it sufficient for the tank to be simply thought of as an anti-infantry weapon. The main weapon would now have to be at least a passable tank-buster as well. Isn't this Pz Ib a pill? You encounter quite a few in WB's "Heros of the Fatherland" campaign. One wouldn't think such a light tank could become such a pain in
the rump.

------------------

Greg.

37 mill AA...
can suddenly ruin your day.

lynchc · Post by **lynchc** » Tue Feb 20, 2001 9:02 pm

I agree about the Pz Ib. However in Heinz Guderian's book, Panzer Leader, the Pz Ib was only intended to be a training tank and only saw combat early in the war due to production shortfalls and timetables for invasion of Poland and the low countries faster than planned. It was actually planned to be used for training of tank maneuver and for demonstration of tank tactics to convince the decision makers as to the wisdom of forming large tank formations, the german wermacht did it first.