Pilot Training Groups

[Mike McCreery]

I am having a little trouble understanding the pilot groups and how you move pilots between them

It is mid March of 1942 and many of the Fighter pilots skills are exceeding 70 air. I have dropped about 20 or more pilots with that skill into the reserves in the last few days. However, when I go to another group and request a veteran, there are none of the pilots with 70 air skill available.

Have I just not given them enough days to get into the reserve queue?

Any suggestions on how to move pilots between active groups and the reserve queue would be appreciated.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Try this:

- Click I to go to intelligence report
- click pilot replacement
- click reserve pool
- check if you find available pilots (not in transit)

then, go back to group
see if they are now available

[rms1pa]

also keep in mind there are many pilot pools.

the various nations plus divisions within nationalities.

for example the USN has patrol squadrons/float squadrons and the carrier squadrons all feeding out of a very small prewar pool.
one of the many reasons to buy back the float squadrons from sunk ships.

rms/pa

[obvert]

The more systematic about pilots you are, the better things will work for you. You might take some notes to see how it works in 42 and prepare for the rest of the game after learning from those particulars. I noted down how many pilots I thought I'd need with the various incoming groups, then tried to train enough to get pools to fill them regularly.

A lot of players have a schedule for when the comb their training groups. Your guys probably haven't made it through the system there yet, but will if you sent them to reserve. I usually get a number of them immediately, then more after a few days. Sometimes it takes up to a week.

You can also try to put them in group reserve and then try to add them from the groups pool. I don't do this anymore as it's more of a pain to find the right groups, but in a pinch it might get them there more quickly. Can't remember if there is still the delay.

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Its easiest to check them at the end of the month and also know that it takes some time for the pilots to get into front line squadrons from the reserves later. So you can have a squadron with heavy losses slated to receive 7 pilots, but those pilots may arrive in lumps over the next few days. Then the squadron needs new pilots yet again as combat continues-- basically meaning as at least the Japanese player you are constantly reviewing your pilot needs.

[wneumann]

For openers… March 1942 is a bit early to bring fully-trained fighter pilots into front line combat ops. A perfectly good pilot in a lousy Allied fighter plane vs an opposing Japanese plane that flies rings around your Allied fighters is usually wasted pilot training.

It’s a bit much to re-post in here – I have written up an organization for Allied pilot training in my thread (Sleepless in Samoa), check the bottom half of page 26, also a later post related to pilot training on page 32. The organization I devised is broken down by nationality and by air mission types (fighters, ground & naval bombing, naval search, recon, etc). A few quick principles though not an all-inclusive list.

1) JFB’s have their industry. For an Allied player, pilot training is their industry.

2) Any air squadron not in active front-line combat operations should be training pilots. There shouldn’t be any air units that are doing absolutely nothing. Air units in restricted commands are prime candidates for pilot training, also any squadron not currently needed in the front lines.

3) Train early, train often. Pilot training should be the major Allied air mission in the early campaign (through at least early 1943). It’s boring as hell but you’ll have much more fun later. I probably had close to 90% or more of all Allied air units in pilot training at some points during 1942-early 1943. The early campaign is the time when you can use the largest possible number of air units for pilot training – the number of available air units you can use for pilot training later in the campaign will decrease as you will need more and more air units for front-line combat operations. The early campaign is the Allied player’s best opportunity for large-scale pilot training.

4) Specialize your pilot training squadrons for specific skills and keep them training in that skill. A fighter training squadron set for Air skill training (Escort mission) should be kept training in that skill – in this example, pilots that become fully trained in the Air skill should be transferred out of the air unit and replaced with new pilots untrained in the Air skill. Once a training squadron is set to train pilots in a particular skill, avoid changing the type of skill set for the squadron unless there’s an absolute need to do so (which should not be often) – changes of this kind will often disrupt your pilot training organization.

5) 70 is the magic number… 70 skill level. Pilots in a training squadron reaching a 70+ level in whatever skill the squadron is training for should be quickly rotated out of the training squadron to the Reserve pool (either to train in another skill with a different training squadron or made available for front-line service) with vacant slots in the squadron filled with new pilots.

6) Check your training squadrons regularly and rotate pilots in/out with as little delay as possible. Fully-trained pilots in a training squadron wastes valuable training capacity. Some training squadrons I check weekly, many I check daily, depends on how much training activity is occurring within the squadron.

7) Multiple levels of pilot training. One trip through a training squadron does not make your pilots combat-ready. Pilots trained in multiple skills usually have higher experience levels.

8) Specialize the pilots you’re training for specific types of missions. A pilot that’s a jack-of-different-skills is often a master of none when they reach the front lines. Pilots should be trained in multiple skills and these skills should be related to each other.

9) Use older plane types for pilot training. PDU on is a must. By 1943, you should be using early model P-40’s for USAAF fighter pilot training, not P-38 or P-47 variants. If you have a training squadron using a newer plane type, downgrade its plane type to something older.

10) Plan like crazy…. You need to look ahead. What kind of trained pilots do you need later? For what mission(s)? How many pilots for a particular type of mission will you need? Look at the types of planes you have, how many of them you get, what the planes are capable of. Also look at your strategy, your circumstances and objectives. These all tell you what kind of pilots you will need, how many and when you will need them.

[Amoral]

Wneumann's points are very good.

I would add that training increases experience very slowly compared to other missions.

Compare two 'training squadrons' one set to training 100% escort, and one set to training escort 50% and cap 50%.

You will notice that the pilots from both groups gain Air skill and experience, but the group on CAP will gain air skill more slowly, but experience much more quickly.

This is something to consider for any group that can be on 'active' duty. You can fly CAP against non existent enemies, and you can fly active duty ASW and naval search patrols even where there is no possibility of finding a sub.

[richlove]

I agree that the more systematic you are, the better results you'll get (and, in the long run, I suspect you'll have less heartache over it). I review my training squadrons on the 1st of every game month (nowhere near the frequency of wneumann). It took me about 6 hours of real life time, probably. I can't imagine doing anything like that, to be honest.

Regarding the process, here's what I *think* I'm doing with respect to wneumann's point 7, above. Pilots destined for fighters go through the 'air' track, etc. Note that this doesn't speak to the #s of groups you have active per country at whatever year of the game. I know I missed some skills - I whipped up this image quickly, but would be happy to update it if people share their approaches.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: richlove

I agree that the more systematic you are, the better results you'll get (and, in the long run, I suspect you'll have less heartache over it). I review my training squadrons on the 1st of every game month (nowhere near the frequency of wneumann). It took me about 6 hours of real life time, probably. I can't imagine doing anything like that, to be honest.

Regarding the process, here's what I *think* I'm doing with respect to wneumann's point 7, above. Pilots destined for fighters go through the 'air' track, etc. Note that this doesn't speak to the #s of groups you have active per country at whatever year of the game. I know I missed some skills - I whipped up this image quickly, but would be happy to update it if people share their approaches.

That's pretty much how I approach things. The way I see it, there are a small number of basic pilot needs.

1) Fighters. Training Air and Strafe, as well as Exp, is necessary here.

2) Recon and Transport - only really need to train these specific skills. Defense skill is just gravy.

3) Tactical LBA bombers: I will train some in Ground Bombing/Low Ground, and some in Ground Bombing/Low Naval.
3a) And for the Allies, Attack Bombers like Strafe skill, right? Those would get LowG/Strafe or LowN/Strafe, but only a few pilots needed here compared to the other groupings...

4) Strategic LBA bombers: Pretty much just Ground Bombing here.

5) Carrier groups/pilots
5a) Torpedo bombers: this one hurts. Since these are typically on your carriers, you'll want all manner of skills trained here. ASW as TBs are generally the best ASW platform, NavT, NavB, and probably even LowNav.
5b) Dive bombers: to take some of the strain off of required skills for TBs, I like to tran DB pilots in Nav Search, as well as NavB. Low Nav is unnecessary and even counterproductive.

6) Float planes - depending on how you use these groups, you probably want a mix of pilots trained in NavSearch/Recon (for BBs/CAs and bombarding), or NavSearch/ASW (for convoy or CV TF protection), or Air/NavSearch for those Rufe/Rex groups.


But richlove's graphic dumbs this down a bit more than I just did. In my experience, the higher Exp a pilot has, the more likely they are to survive a mission, so it's important to get your combat pilots up into the 60s if at all possible - I know it's hard once they hit the magic 50 or 51 Exp where training slows down.

[mind_messing]

I know it's hard once they hit the magic 50 or 51 Exp where training slows down.

Which is why I have them fly 100% CAP for a fortnight before graduating the class...

[richlove]

All right, the kids are in bed, so here's version two of this diagram. Notes:

- criteria for being pulled from the training squadron are clearly labeled
- the blue lines represent pilots being pulled from a dedicated training squadron into the reserve, then getting pulled out of the reserve and placed into a different training squadron.
- being forced to draw this out made me realize I have no idea what I'm doing for tactical air and attack bombers. Thoughts?
- as Lokasenna said, you end up sweating the CV pilots. Yes, you want your VB squadrons to be able to find enemy ships. Yes, you want your VT squadrons to be able to bomb, and to run ASW, and to also find ships to hit. It gets complicated, and i'm not quite sold on how I've laid it out here. And what if you want your VB and VT groups to hit airfields, or provide invasion ground support?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: richlove
And what if you want your VB and VT groups to hit airfields, or provide invasion ground support?

I meant to post about that but forgot.

I think this is what USMC squadrons are for . I'll train then in NavB/GrndB only as it's the job of Catalinas and VB squadrons to find the enemy. Can always transfer the USMC squadrons to CVs or CVEs for invasion support.

[wneumann]

Compare two 'training squadrons' one set to training 100% escort, and one set to training escort 50% and cap 50%.

You will notice that the pilots from both groups gain Air skill and experience, but the group on CAP will gain air skill more slowly, but experience much more quickly.

I typically do the Air skill training and CAP to gain experience in separate air units. Air skill training done in a dedicated rear-area squadron. For CAP training, I've done this in forward theatre commands with fighter squadrons flying CAP to cover major bases in quiet areas behind the front lines. General practice for fighter pilots going into CAP squadrons to have 70 skill levels in both Escort and Strafing and experience levels in the 50's (most cases). I use CAP squadrons as "Level 3" training for fighter pilots, skill training in Escort and Strafing being the first two levels. Pilots in these CAP squadrons are rotated out when experience levels reach 65+ (this to ensure other fighter pilots get a turn).

[wneumann]

Tactical LBA bombers: I will train some in Ground Bombing/Low Ground, and some in Ground Bombing/Low Naval.
3a) And for the Allies, Attack Bombers like Strafe skill, right? Those would get LowG/Strafe or LowN/Strafe, but only a few pilots needed here compared to the other groupings...

LBA bomber pilots (excluding torpedo planes) should be trained to either of two groups.

1) Ground attack - Pilots in this group trained to 70+ skill in both high and low level ground attack. Naval search and/or recon when you have the opportunity for additional training. This should be your largest group of bomber pilots as this group of pilots feeds the 4E bombing units and 2E bomber squadrons designated to perform mainly ground attacks.

2) Naval attack - This group of pilots is smaller, pilots in this group trained to 70+ in both high and low level naval attack (bombs not torpedoes). USAAF pilots in this group are exclusively for 2E bomber units and form the core of your skip bombers (when combined with the correct B-25 plane variants). Secondary training for these pilots is naval search. Naval attack bomber pilots aren't needed in large quantities and mainly for the USAAF. Pilots for LBA torpedo planes (trained in torpedo bombing) can also be drawn from this group. 2E skip bombers with fully trained pilots and the correct plane types are as nasty if not more so than your JFB's Bettys and Nells.

The obvious pitfall of this training scheme is specialization - the exact opposite to "jack of all trades, master of none". Many (though not all) my bombing squadrons are organized for either ground or naval attack (ground in most cases). My school of thought being a bomber squadron set up 50-50 for both ground and naval attack missions will not do that well at either activity.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: wneumann

Tactical LBA bombers: I will train some in Ground Bombing/Low Ground, and some in Ground Bombing/Low Naval.
3a) And for the Allies, Attack Bombers like Strafe skill, right? Those would get LowG/Strafe or LowN/Strafe, but only a few pilots needed here compared to the other groupings...

LBA bomber pilots (excluding torpedo planes) should be trained to either of two groups.

1) Ground attack - Pilots in this group trained to 70+ skill in both high and low level ground attack. Naval search and/or recon when you have the opportunity for additional training. This should be your largest group of bomber pilots as this group of pilots feeds the 4E bombing units and 2E bomber squadrons designated to perform mainly ground attacks.

2) Naval attack - This group of pilots is smaller, pilots in this group trained to 70+ in both high and low level naval attack (bombs not torpedoes). USAAF pilots in this group are exclusively for 2E bomber units and form the core of your skip bombers (when combined with the correct B-25 plane variants). Secondary training for these pilots is naval search. Naval attack bomber pilots aren't needed in large quantities and mainly for the USAAF. Pilots for LBA torpedo planes (trained in torpedo bombing) can also be drawn from this group. 2E skip bombers with fully trained pilots and the correct plane types are as nasty if not more so than your JFB's Bettys and Nells.

The obvious pitfall of this training scheme is specialization - the exact opposite to "jack of all trades, master of none". Many (though not all) my bombing squadrons are organized for either ground or naval attack (ground in most cases). My school of thought being a bomber squadron set up 50-50 for both ground and naval attack missions will not do that well at either activity.

This is what I meant, but in many more sentences [:)]. +1

[richlove]

Some more questions:

- Is there any value to high naval bombing? I was under the impression that only dive-bombing and skip bombing were worth the time.
- At what altitude do you train for LowG?
- At what altitude do you train for LowN? Or is strafe the appropriate skill for skip bombing?

wneumann, I'm curious about how you utilize your GrB / LowG pilots in practice. Do you move them from (say) B-17s to B-25s based on need, or do you temporarily assign B-17 groups to GrB when the need arises?

[wneumann]

Is there any value to high naval bombing? I was under the impression that only dive-bombing and skip bombing were worth the time.

I'm training pilots for 2E naval bombers in both high and low naval bombing mainly for two things - (1) pilots are going through two rounds of training to gain experience level, and (2) 2E naval bombing pilots are fully trained for naval attack at any altitude.

Naval attack with level bombers at higher altitudes (> 1000') is generally not that good compared to skip and dive bombing. That said... higher altitude level bombing attacks on ships could be preferable in cases where you don't have dive bombers handy and skip bombing with 2E bombers would result in heavy plane losses. Naval air strikes against surface combat and carrier TF aren't the most favorable environment for skip bombing - CAP fighters, ships with heavy AA armament and/or armor protection all unfavorable to skip bombing in some respect or other. In these scenarios, I'd send the 2E bombers at higher altitude if I send them at all. Skip bombing is best suited for naval strike attacks on transports, auxiliaries and small ships/craft with light or no flak armament and little or no armor protection. Skip bombing along with strafing missions are useful in naval strikes on barges and other very small ships.

At what altitude do you train for LowG? At what altitude do you train for LowN? Or is strafe the appropriate skill for skip bombing?.

Train at 1000’ for both LowG and LowN. 100’ altitude is strictly for strafing. Look at any of your bomber squadrons where you have pilots training, strafing isn’t even an available training mission for these air units. Strafing is strictly for fighters.

Skip bombing altitude is 1000', a plane on a skip bombing run strafes the ship it’s attacking before releasing the bomb.

Ground attack bombing at low altitudes (1000’) can be very nasty – maximum bombing accuracy for the planes and pilots you’re using, especially on airfields and probably LCU’s. The risks of low altitude bombing are also nasty – Jap bases with known flak LCU and fighter CAP very detrimental. Night attacks on targets with little or no known flak cover the best bet for tree-top runs. It’s basically strafing at a slightly higher altitude.

(someone can correct me if I'm wrong...) 2E bomber units in AE may need to be equipped with specific plane types before they will skip bomb (in addition to having properly trained pilots). Weapons of choice being the B-25D1 and B-25G – both B-25 variants historically used for skip bombing , both types available in quantity in AE during the second half of 1943. AE uses forward armament on the B-25D1 (eight .50 cal MG) and B-25G (75mm cannon plus MG) to strafe a target ship before the attacking plane drops its bomb – the plane doesn’t always strafe but effective when it does.

[Alfred]

Any level bomber can skip bomb.  The difference is that only Attack Bombers do not suffer the altitude penalties when skip bombing whereas other Level Bombers do.  Also AB are equipped to suppress enemy flak.
 
Alfred

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: richlove

Some more questions:

- Is there any value to high naval bombing? I was under the impression that only dive-bombing and skip bombing were worth the time.
- At what altitude do you train for LowG?
- At what altitude do you train for LowN? Or is strafe the appropriate skill for skip bombing?

wneumann, I'm curious about how you utilize your GrB / LowG pilots in practice. Do you move them from (say) B-17s to B-25s based on need, or do you temporarily assign B-17 groups to GrB when the need arises?

I've gotten hits from 6k with Kates, and the more bombs you have obviously the greater chances you have. If you're using a USN 4E they might be very effective from 6k.

If I remember correctly the penalty for going to 1k for a level bomber (not an attack bomber) is using the LR load, or halving the bomb load. Does accuracy go up by double? Depend on what you're attacking. Against heavy flak, maybe not. Against small merchants, it's most likely worth it.

[Alfred]

obvert,
 
There are also pilot penalties.
 
Yes, in some circumstances it is worth it, and not in others.
 
Alfred