I'm seriously considering taking the plunge!

[brian brian]

of course terms like "a lot" are relative, and comparing capital ship losses to merchant shipping is a classic example of apples and oranges. I think a fair number of cruisers on all sides went down via submarine attack as well, with plenty of "Damage" results also. and certainly a lot of submarines were lost whilst attempting to attack surface warships, particularly for the Japanese (WiF achieves this very effectively).

thank you for the statistics Rasputitsa. my point is - I don't think you will see 20 BB &/or CV sunk by submarines in a game of World in Flames, probably not ever.

in my opinion, the problem of Submarines in World in Flames is not one of hindsight at all. it is a problem of abstract modeling. it is a quick-and-dirty solution, i.e. very playable, to just use the SCS counters to be convoy escorts. capital ships were positively not used in an anti-submarine role. indeed, capital ships required their own anti-sub destroyer escorts when operating in enemy sub waters, and many potential capital ship sorties were scrubbed due to lack of escorts, which were busy on the convoy routes. check out the Royal Navy cruiser losses on the Murmansk run for an example.

and the WWII navies did not have 5 Destroyers for every single CV/BB/CA….no power had anywhere close to that amount. over time the Allies had huge numbers of corvettes, etc., for anti-submarine work. these are also modeled abstractly by simply giving the Allied CP increasing ASW points as the war moves along. For that matter, Liberty ships themselves are abstract as the USA can support millions of soldiers in Europe in 1945 without increasing the Convoy Points they have had on the board since 1943.

submarines and ASW air & naval units in the game are just a part of it that has never been developed extensively the way aircraft and specialized land unit divisions have. the players are generally not that interested; their main focus is on armored campaigns on land. for many, the sea zones are just a necessary part of modeling where the invasions go in, and abstract details are perfectly fine. of course WiF is a huge improvement over the 9 factor fleets in Third Reich. But those simple fleets in Third Reich never kept anyone from playing that game repeatedly.

aircraft vs Submarines in the game is also very over simplified. the western Allies had huge internal squabbles over assigning new 4 engine aircraft to land campaigns (Bomber Command) or the Battle of the Atlantic (Coastal Command), and the same went for aircrews, as training for naval air crews was quite different. these questions had to be decided on at the level of Roosevelt and Churchill. In World in Flames, you just scramble a FTR-2 counter to the 0 box in the Bay of Biscay and the SUBs just lost 4 surprise points if they want to attack. scramble any random aircraft with an air-to-sea factor, or use an air mission to send a twin-engine bomber (with a crew trained for land missions) to a higher box and the SUBs might start taking losses.

I don't think British carriers sailed from port in 1939 with any capability of sinking a submarine with their aircraft. HMS Courageous paid the price for this in the first two weeks of the war. When the first British plane attempted to bomb a U-Boat on the surface, the U-Boat completely won that battle as the aircraft's bombs bounced off the surface of the water, exploded in the air and destroyed the aircraft. The U-Boat took the aircrew back to Germany as prisoners. It took the Allies some time to figure out how to use aircraft to defeat the U-Boats. But in WiF, a CV will likely sink, damage, or repel a U-Boat on the first turn of the game, unless the U-Boat counter rolls a really lucky 1/10 or 2/9 split on the search dice. which does happen in the game, but not very often.

The Convoy in Flames kit attempted to improve these situations. Few people are interested in using it generally. there are always ways the game can be improved. one can say that the allocation of resources is modeled effectively in World in Flames, but the nuts-and-bolts mechanics of how submarine, merchant shipping, and ASW capabilities are used are just plain ugly in the game.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Neilster

It's worth remembering, however, that merchant ships could be built relatively quickly and cheaply. Liberty ships were eventually turned out in a matter of weeks. Capital ships represented a far greater investment in time and resources.

Cheers, Neilster

Neil where have you been, miss your expertise, good to see your still here and helping posters.

Bo

I've been very busy with my duties as discipline coordinator and masseur at an exclusive all-girl academy [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Neilster

It's worth remembering, however, that merchant ships could be built relatively quickly and cheaply. Liberty ships were eventually turned out in a matter of weeks. Capital ships represented a far greater investment in time and resources.

Cheers, Neilster

Neil where have you been, miss your expertise, good to see your still here and helping posters.

Bo

I've been very busy with my duties as discipline coordinator and masseur at an exclusive all-girl academy [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

warspite1

Are you the chief eunuch?

[Neilster]

Are you the chief eunuch?

Unfortunately, the eunuch's brakes got tampered with and, coincidentally, a car bomb also turned his vehicle into a fireball as it plunged into a ravine.

Luckily I had put a job application in that day and I was successful [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[Numdydar]

Please let us know what jobs you might apply for in the future so we can just quit before you apply [:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Neilster

It's worth remembering, however, that merchant ships could be built relatively quickly and cheaply. Liberty ships were eventually turned out in a matter of weeks. Capital ships represented a far greater investment in time and resources.

Cheers, Neilster

Neil where have you been, miss your expertise, good to see your still here and helping posters.

Bo

I've been very busy with my duties as discipline coordinator and masseur at an exclusive all-girl academy [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

Is that the same thing as rubbing down the poor dears tired backs after they had an exhausting 30 minutes playing badmitten. Not a bad job Neil [;)]

Bo

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Please let us know what jobs you might apply for in the future so we can just quit before you apply [:D]

I'm happy with this one. The pay isn't brilliant and there's a lot of after hours stuff but for some reason I just love coming to work.

ORIGINAL: Bo

Is that the same thing as rubbing down the poor dears tired backs after they had an exhausting 30 minutes playing badmitten. Not a bad job Neil

Backs, shoulders, thighs, feet...I'm very thorough.

Cheers, Neilster

[Ichirou989]

Interesting discussion that illuminates how WiF is a very deep game on the subject of World War 2, and for those willing to take the time to learn it's intricacies it's also a very rewarding experience. Even more so when played with a group of 4 or 5 like-minded individuals.

However, we do seem to have lost the OP...I wonder if he bought the game or not yet? [:D]