Arty over 155mm

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 4:49 am

Ok starting new thread because the other one is too loooong!
IMHO...after much thought, I tend to agree that the big guns should be left out, they tend to take all the tactics, planing, ect ect.. out of gameplay. I mean anyone can buy 3 or 4 battalions of 8 in or 203 or higher and and Hit the "B" key. whats the fun or challenge in this?
Been playing lately with maybe 3 batteries, opponents, maybe 3 or 4 battalions! Christ I dont even move toward any V hexes anymore coz all they do is arty your side of them to death...
My vote...leave the bigger guns out, use tactics and planning to win, not the "B" Key
Alby

[This message has been edited by Alby (edited March 07, 2001).]

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:45 am

Tactics and planing yeah shouldn't that be all the Tigers and Wulfraums ya want and boosting Stug ratings ..Tactics and planing..I love it

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:55 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Tactics and planing yeah shouldn't that be all the Tigers and Wulfraums ya want and boosting Stug ratings ..Tactics and planing..I love it

Well since weve never played,and you dont know me from a hole in the wall, guess i should mention, I am not a "best of the best" guy.
I usually go for mostly lesser equpiment,what fun is it to get all tigers and wufers??, sure I may get a few tigers if available bit certainly not all!,I dont constanly play as Germans anyway. The game is alot more fun if you make it a challenge, not a shooting match or arty duel.win or lose big deal, its just a game. actually I was one of the biggest advocates for raising the price of the wufers, so people would quit buying so damn many of em!
as for stugs,yes I think they are a little weak in spwaw.
Next time you make some smartass comment, make sure you know a little about the person...deal???
Alby

[This message has been edited by Alby (edited March 07, 2001).]

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:16 pm

IMHO SPWAW should try to be as realistic as possible. So the question to ask should be, were real WW2 battles the arty massacre that is outlined above?

If they were, then nothing should be changed.

If they were not, the the question is why.

If they weren't because arty was usually not availbale to batallions in those quatities then the price of arty should be increased.

If they weren't because arty wasn't as effective as it is in SPWAW, then artillery effectiveness should decreased in some way (longer plotting times etc).

I do not like the idea of removing anything from the OOB though. It would be better to introduce some sort of limit to odd stuff, so that you cannot buy lots of it even if you have the points (ie not more than 1 sec of Maus). Or you could perhaps attach a rarity factor to each unit, indicating the chance that kind of unit would be available for this particular battle.

Just my 2 cents...

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:21 pm

Ah, one other idea: you could perhaps have the biggest guns only on the first round as preparatory bombardment, a common practice during WW2 I belive. With the proper price adjustment of course...

Michael Wermelin · Post by **Michael Wermelin** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 2:52 pm

Yogi!

I agree with you. Let those tacticts-destroying-large-sons-of-guns only be available as a pre bombardement. Remember folks what a very wise man said at this forum. His exact words don't come to mind but the meaning of them were this: " The game shall not only be realistic, it should also be fun and playable. We must find a path between realism and playability. "

Guess who that could be? No names, but I agree with all my heart.

yours

Colonel von Blitz · Post by **Colonel von Blitz** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 4:20 pm

Yogi!
Now there is an excellent idea!!

Colonel von Blitz

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:54 pm

We call them level bombers, but as I said on the other thread, that is exactly what you can do now... You have to preplan where they will land and what turn before the game starts. Whether they are 250lb bombs or 250 lb 8in shells, the guy underneath likely knows only to hug mother earth...

If you want to lay waste to a 300 x 300 yard box, thats the way to do it. But you have to hope the bad guys are there when the missions come in.

[This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited March 08, 2001).]

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 7:05 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
We call them level bombers, but as I said on the other thread, that is exactly what you can do now...

Great, but how about going all the way and actually including the big guns in the "level bomber phase"? Representing battleship artillery with B-17s seems a bit off, even if the net effect might be much the same...(BOUUM!)

JTV · Post by **JTV** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 7:47 pm

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
Great, but how about going all the way and actually including the big guns in the "level bomber phase"? Representing battleship artillery with B-17s seems a bit off, even if the net effect might be much the same...(BOUUM!)

About level bombers with big bombs: Anybody noticed that there are some countries that don't have these (but they did historically have large caliber artillery)? What about historical scenarios from battles in which heavy artillery was used but no level bombers?

About allowing them caliber artillery only for pre-bombardment: I am just doing historical scenario in which player gets artillery reinforcements during battle, guess how this suits with that?

Limitations that you have suggested are going to make making historical scenarios much harder (and impossible in some cases). Take a wild guess how pissed I am going to be if the historical scenarios that I have spent hundreds of hours to make (some of them include 203mm howitzer-batteries as they historically should) are going to end up to be with not-working artillery with version 5.

Sorry to say but I don't like where this is discussion is going. So, we are now trying to figure out what weapons to take off so nobody can't misuse them in wrong way, tradionally "western" way have been to give people lot of rights (in this case big artillery weapons) and only punish those who misuse their rights, instead of taking these rights away from everybody just that nobody could misuse them.

If somebody can't use heavy artillery properly it is his/her shame, but I don't I don't see any merit in taking heavy arty away from everybody just because some don't act reasonably. I certainly know that I didn't spend my time and money in oob-development just to get oobs degraded for reasons like this.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 7:52 pm

Originally posted by Alby:

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Tactics and planing yeah shouldn't that be all the Tigers and Wulfraums ya want and boosting Stug ratings ..Tactics and planing..I love it

Well since weve never played,and you dont know me from a hole in the wall, guess i should mention, I am not a "best of the best" guy.
I usually go for mostly lesser equpiment,what fun is it to get all tigers and wufers??, sure I may get a few tigers if available bit certainly not all!,I dont constanly play as Germans anyway. The game is alot more fun if you make it a challenge, not a shooting match or arty duel.win or lose big deal, its just a game. actually I was one of the biggest advocates for raising the price of the wufers, so people would quit buying so damn many of em!
as for stugs,yes I think they are a little weak in spwaw.
Next time you make some smartass comment, make sure you know a little about the person...deal???
Alby

Dig that man!! How about a game with Axis Minors, for a real challenge, enough of this damn high and mighty Germans/Americans horse****!!! Me and a fellow did a Hungarian/Rumanian, THAT was fun!!

[This message has been edited by Alby (edited March 07, 2001).]

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 8:01 pm

Originally posted by JTV:
About level bombers with big bombs: Anybody noticed that there are some countries that don't have these (but they did historically have large caliber artillery)? What about historical scenarios from battles in which heavy artillery was used but no level bombers?

About allowing them caliber artillery only for pre-bombardment: I am just doing historical scenario in which player gets artillery reinforcements during battle, guess how this suits with that?

Limitations that you have suggested are going to make making historical scenarios much harder (and impossible in some cases). Take a wild guess how pissed I am going to be if the historical scenarios that I have spent hundreds of hours to make (some of them include 203mm howitzer-batteries as they historically should) are going to end up to be with not-working artillery with version 5.

Sorry to say but I don't like where this is discussion is going. So, we are now trying to figure out what weapons to take off so nobody can't misuse them in wrong way, tradionally "western" way have been to give people lot of rights (in this case big artillery weapons) and only punish those who misuse their rights, instead of taking these rights away from everybody just that nobody could misuse them.

If somebody can't use heavy artillery properly it is his/her shame, but I don't I don't see any merit in taking heavy arty away from everybody just because some don't act reasonably. I certainly know that I didn't spend my time and money in oob-development just to get oobs degraded for reasons like this.

For my part, I would only want to see limitations that increase realism. If lots and lots of arty is the way battles were fought, then let it be that way, and let those who want to play with less arty agree to do so. My suggestion came entirely from the notion that really large caliber artillery was most often used in a pre-bombardment role. If this was not so, I withdraw it readily.

I think in the long run, the best limitation would be to have a "rarity" factor attached to each type of unit, so that they were not always available in 2 player or campaign games, and only in small numbers when they are. This would also adress the problems such as Tigers a-plenty, Wurframen extravaganza and the likes...

Ah, and all and every kind of gun or thingey should ALWAYS be available for scenario design. Reducing the options for those unselfish heros that toil endlessly to bring us fresh scenarios to play is unacceptable.

[This message has been edited by Yogi Yohan (edited March 08, 2001).]

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 10:20 pm

Well, we seem to have a disagreement between the "historically accurate" simulation over game people and the "I just wantta have fun" game over simulation people.

Paul has noted in the other thread (it was way too long, thanks Alby) that he was getting flack from some people who felt that heavy arty was unbalancing the game. He said that since he was going to get flack for either including or removing heavy arty, he might as well stick with the historical side and remove it. (I hope that I have this essentially correct, I do not mean to mistate him).

I can understand Paul's desire to keep the game historical, especially after all his effort to rip out and replace the armor factors with real numbers. I do not want to minimize all that Matrix has given us but I do feel a little let down that something is to be removed from the game because some people can not handle it. I feel as if the game is being dumbed down and less extensive in its ability to simulate situations because of this decision. I wish the heavy arty was there with a statement in the manual about how it was used and that it can be used in non-historical ways at the player's peril or delight.

------------------
An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 10:43 pm

I still don't think the heavies have been taken out, last I looked, they were still in the newest oob's!!?? It has been a few days, but looked to me like they were there. Anyway, I don't so much mind a player having maybe a battery or so of these in a larger PBEM, but I DO have a problem with multiple batteries totalling more than a division would have assigned to them, not to mention that these are Corps guns!! Personal opinion, of course, just can't deal with the whole scenario, getting clobbered by a tank heavy force(obscure ones at that, like FT tanks), and on top of that 203mm constantly hitting my infantry, screw that!! And all this after choosing Pz III's, mostly, and SPG, and mostly infantry!!

------------------
Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Mar 08, 2001 11:39 pm

I think they are there "for scenario developers" in the "12/49" bin. I don;t have teh latest ones handy, but I'm going by what we decided to make available for battle generator play.

For those that need them in a historical scenario, I think they are "in the game"...but because of all the flak over folks abusing the fact that the game does not have an "information model" that realistically protrays teh limitations on using hugher and higher echelon artillery assets, together with the histroical infrequence of thier tactical use, we decided that summed to "leave them out of the battle generator mix".

Its as much because the game system can't handle it as becasue people can't handle it. Like many of these decisions they have complex roots that generally get over-simplifed and emotionalized in these dicussions.

Battle ship guns are included in Naval Gun class that are now represented by small (5-6 in, medium (8-10in) and heavy (11+in) They are there in the battlegenerator for amphibious assalut scenarios and scenario designers can use them where they want for historical scenarios.

OUr solution to the delimna of satisfying both the game players and the history recreators, was to allow scenario designers "access to everything" while we limited some of the things form the battle generator that didn't belong in the standard issue meeting engagement type battle that 90% of pbemers play.

LIke I siad, if focussing histroical play toward scenarios and "game play" to the battlegenerator isn;t a good compromise, then I welcome other ideas, but the best I could come up with to allow the historical camp to have scenarios with a detailed an arsenal as teh OOB slots will support AND respond to pbem battle generator players concerns that some folks consistently bought extremely ahistorical concentrations of heavy artillery.

The conversation on the other thread dealt strictly with what is available in battle generator games (at least my responses). Couple that with the fact that individuals worked on each OOB for 4.5 and may well have done what they wanted to add or delete units they personally thought should or should not be relegated to the scenario designer only pool. Thus many "exceptions" to the general guidence I gave occured and we may not have found all of them yet. (like Wurframmen which I still am not sure where they ended up in the latest v5 - But I thought onboard only for scenarios, and offboard in BG...but I may be wrong not being involved very much in OOBs anymore...

And if the country you want doesn't have a type of unit you wnat, that is what the nation button is for

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:19 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
I think they are there "for scenario developers" in the "12/49" bin. I don;t have teh latest ones handy, but I'm going by what we decided to make available for battle generator play....

And if the country you want doesn't have a type of unit you wnat, that is what the nation button is for

Hooahh! OK, I did not understand that they were still in the OOB @ 12/49. Therefore, they are still there if I need them. OK, I will shut up now. I consider that Matrix has given me what we are asking for.

------------------
An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 1:19 am

Yes i have been talking strictly PBEM battle generator.. and my main concern with large caliber has been counterbattery fire ..my other concern was MRL's .. I don't think Wulfraums have the range to be off board many suggestions to mitigate the wulfraums relaod rate have been suggested and i think are worthy of being looked at ...
I think one thing that seriously needs to be mentioned with the large Caliber Guns is firing rate , the Anzio annie twins (280mm i think) was ,between the two, they could only get off 7 rounds an Hour combined .. That could be hard to model ... simliar but not as drastic rates of fire are true for many european large bore stuff .. The US 8" didn't suffer from that as much and had a rate of fire that poses no problem for modeling within the game turn ...I see where Large caliber and Naval and Air will all behave as offboard in the latest Version ver5 . ver3 does that inculde counterbattery and is their some way short of assigning a fire mission to withhold air from counterbattery ( if in fact it can counterbattery) or conversely is their a way to assign it counterbattery ..
Lumping US 8" in with european large caliber stuff grossly misrepresents US 8" they really were a different breed ... from setting them up , mobility, rate of fire, and usage .. not that i think anything will change minds ..
That leaves the 12 common 155mm Long Toms indigeniuos to the Division Arty even if there was no attacthed Arty regt or Field Arty Group they can very nicely provide the counterbattery capability that i am most concerned with .. and if i get a note from my grandchildren that say i won't misuse them ...... whats the status on them ?
MRL's onboard I support onboard wulfies and i have no trouble neutralizing or killing them usually on the first turn .. but i think it only fair that the germans get the pleasure of wiping out 4.5's and Katushka's with the same skill what do you say ???

[This message has been edited by AmmoSgt (edited March 08, 2001).]

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 1:31 am

Soory that i have to do this in multiple posts but my server doesn't recognize posting as a valid activity and i have a better chance of actually getting stuff posted if i try a keep it shorter ..
ALBY it was not a personal attack on you .. But it has been my persoan experience that if abuse is the criteria for exculding stuff from the game then the Tiger King Tiger and wulfraums would in all fairness be the first to go ... it is rare to play a 43 or 44 game where they are not present usually the only tank occasionaly Panthers ..which i personaly find harder to knock out when used sensibly .. but thats my problem ...I can't blame german players for using something like a tiger that is such an extrodianry bargin compared to other german choices elite cheap powerful well armored and effective .. The normal german force selection for league play is german FJ's backed by Tigers and wulfraums some mobile flak .. how do you think i got so darn proficent at knocking them out ...practice practice practice ... If abusing the the systems means overuse and unusual quanity then they need to be looked at somehow .. not taken out .. but can you blame anybody for chosing them at the price ??
In all fairness i should mention that the German player is completely without light Hows in the OOB for onboard and at the price of mortars .. that might be a factor in the german complaints about US arty they have no stake in arty because truth be told they have been neglected ... in that regard ... I advocate german players look at occupied countries appropiate to the time a theater involved and they steal some 75's or 100/105's or whatever and try them ...Thats how the germans got 120 mortars to start with .. capturing Russian stuff .....

john g · Post by **john g** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 3:15 am

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
IMHO SPWAW should try to be as realistic as possible. So the question to ask should be, were real WW2 battles the arty massacre that is outlined above?

If they were, then nothing should be changed.

If they were not, the the question is why.

If they weren't because arty was usually not availbale to batallions in those quatities then the price of arty should be increased.

If they weren't because arty wasn't as effective as it is in SPWAW, then artillery effectiveness should decreased in some way (longer plotting times etc).

I do not like the idea of removing anything from the OOB though. It would be better to introduce some sort of limit to odd stuff, so that you cannot buy lots of it even if you have the points (ie not more than 1 sec of Maus). Or you could perhaps attach a rarity factor to each unit, indicating the chance that kind of unit would be available for this particular battle.

Just my 2 cents...

Artillery was the real killer in WWII, I read one qoute from a historian to the effect that only those clumsy enough or with bad enough luck managed to get hit by small arms fire. The question is, though, is it fun to play with an opponent that believes in turning the map into a lunar landscape. I personally play with very little arty, I don't like using it, it's not precise enough a weapon to suit me.
thanks, John.

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Fri Mar 09, 2001 7:52 am

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Soory that i have to do this in multiple posts but my server doesn't recognize posting as a valid activity and i have a better chance of actually getting stuff posted if i try a keep it shorter ..
ALBY it was not a personal attack on you .. But it has been my persoan experience that if abuse is the criteria for exculding stuff from the game then the Tiger King Tiger and wulfraums would in all fairness be the first to go ... it is rare to play a 43 or 44 game where they are not present usually the only tank occasionaly Panthers ..which i personaly find harder to knock out when used sensibly .. but thats my problem ...I can't blame german players for using something like a tiger that is such an extrodianry bargin compared to other german choices elite cheap powerful well armored and effective .. The normal german force selection for league play is german FJ's backed by Tigers and wulfraums some mobile flak .. how do you think i got so darn proficent at knocking them out ...practice practice practice ... If abusing the the systems means overuse and unusual quanity then they need to be looked at somehow .. not taken out .. but can you blame anybody for chosing them at the price ??
In all fairness i should mention that the German player is completely without light Hows in the OOB for onboard and at the price of mortars .. that might be a factor in the german complaints about US arty they have no stake in arty because truth be told they have been neglected ... in that regard ... I advocate german players look at occupied countries appropiate to the time a theater involved and they steal some 75's or 100/105's or whatever and try them ...Thats how the germans got 120 mortars to start with .. capturing Russian stuff .....

OK Ammo, It just appeared to be a personal attack, if not then am truly sorry, just been sooooooo tired of arty duels, dealt with them in sp3online for along time,back then it was the "cluster arty" issue.(6 tanks destroyed in one shot gimme a break) anyway, just trying to make a point to players to remember, this is a game, not real life, it is supposed to fun, it cannot be 100% totally historically accurate. Not all can be pleased. I myself luv the 155mm field guns, they arnt going are they?
I too noticed the germans have no light onboard arty, so in my personal set of oobs, I gave em 75s onboard, as well as captured 122s off board.
Anyway if we were all marines, the point of dropping certain oobs would be a moot point, we would simply "adapt and overcome"
sorry for misunderstanding. I leave it to matrix to do whats best.
Alby