Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

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Gorforlin
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by Gorforlin »

ORIGINAL: jglazier

Who the heck is Pelton, and why does he keep getting referenced?

He got the 1v1=2v1 Middle Earth rule set nerfed and then finally nerfed from game.

He is the one who was told he was nuts for 9 months ( baned for being pissed at 2by3 was ignoring the data) by 2by3 and others for saying there was ammo bug, moral bugs and an
armament bug that was crashing the German army by design or WAD, but a piss poor design.

He was found to be 100% right (9 months later} by morveal and 2 others after games started crashing as he said they would.
ALL the games started under that rule set had to be started over because of massive swapping bugs and ALLOT of people stopped playing after that. 100's of hours into a game only to find the game was busted.

morveal and his crew was able to fix everything ( allot of his hard work was put into WitW so we don't have late war issue like WitE)
and then make a massive improvement with 1.08.

2by3 deserves allot of credit for learning from there uber screw up, they simply don't disreguard people now when they say something is not working right.

Pelton can be an ass, but if something is screwed up he will be an army of 1 and keep going for months until its fixed all be it after everyone games were screwed.

RedBunny
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by RedBunny »

You kinda know Pelton, he sounds allot like Gorforlin!
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LiquidSky
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by LiquidSky »



The allies never seemed to have much difficulty knowing flak strengths when you read their historical reports. They were always going on and on about the amount of flak they had to face.

But I will concede that if the German flak doesn't fire at the bombers, it should remain hidden in FoW.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
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KWG
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by KWG »

Or enemies' flak shown as L, M, H instead of exact number.

Ability to only see flak locations of the ones that shot at you last turn.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
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Nico165b165
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by Nico165b165 »

First attempt air tutorial with 1.00.07. The same strategy (Ploesti, Rühr, Hamburg, Bremen) that gave me a decisive victory pre-patch now gives a draw. Higher flak and air combat losses. Seems good !

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Carterjon
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by Carterjon »

Nico, can you provide any insight into how you avoid a major debacle as the Allies? I lose almost 200 aircraft a turn, and the Axis AI keeps getting a major victory against me. I see you are getting that magnitude of losses but I don't seem to be able to get the VPs you do. Do you create ADs with much tighter areas over selected targets or use large target areas as the automatic ADs create by default? Do you mess with altitude or other parameters?

Thanks.

Postscript: managed to eke out a minor Allied victory by targeting very tight areas that focussed on the factory types I wanted to bomb, rather than the large ones that the AI set up by default. Maybe that's the key.
JWW
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

As per the manual, in the full 43-45 campaign you have 3 separate VP counters tied to the allied Strat bombing:
1) Axis industry
2) U-boat factories
3) V-bomb sites

Point 2) and 3) are tied to the date your in.
On 43, the game keeps track of how many u-boat factories there are, and how much you damage, and gives you a VP penalty for the amount of u-boat factories not damaged at the end of each turn. Meaning, if you bomb 100% of the u-boat factories, you get a 0 penalty per turn.

On 44 and 45, the game STOPS keeping track of u-boat factories, and starts keeping track of V-bomb sites and factories, using the same system as per the u-boats.

Point 1 is a bit more tricky.
The axis industry is divided in 5 categories:
1)German Manpower
2)German Heavy Industry
3)Axis Oil Factories
4)Axis Fuel Factories
5)Axis Synthetic Fuel Factories

So, bombing, per example, a french armaments factory nets you absolutely 0 VPs.

Now, onto more detail. There are a total of 8202 factories that go into those last 5 categories.
1)German Manpower - 5973 points, totaling 72.8%
2)German Heavy Industry - 1392 points, totaling 17%
3)Axis Oil Factories - 260 points, totaling 3.2%
4)Axis Fuel Factories - 332 points, totaling 4%
5)Axis Synthetic Fuel Factories - 245 points, totaling 3%

With these numbers, you can see that german manpower centers should be a priority from a VP point of view, but there are a few other options that i would like to point out:

Image
As you can see, the Hamburg region is an extremely rich target for 43 bombing.
1st, you have 77% of the u-boat factories in the vicinity (red targets), plus, near 20% of all the oil and fuel production for the axis. 20% oil and fuel means 1.44% of the total possible strat bombing targets, just for a 1 hex radius region around Hamburg. Either you play allies or axis, this is definitely an area you want to strat bomb\defend.

Next, the holy Grail of the Axis oil production, the area near Bucharest (check the minimap if your lost)

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52% of all the oil production, plus 25% of fuel production. you will need mainland italy airbases to hit these fields, but once you do, you have access to a full 2.66% of the total possible strat bombing targets, plus a big hit to oil production.

Finaly, let me mention this area:
Image
Its near Breslau, meaning deep into polish territory, but in just 2 hexes you have 25% of all the Synthetic fuel production for the Axis, meaning 1.5% of total strat VP points. Worth the shot if you B17 bombers can reach them

As for the German Heavy factories and Manpower centers, the high concentration spots should be easy to pick, and the AI does a good job at it (just set your priorities via Air directive screen). Hope this helps.

How do I get to the charts you are showing on the maps for U Boat Factories, Oil Production, etc., in the format you are displaying it. I just can't find that data in that form. Thanks for your help.
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Jajusha
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by Jajusha »

ORIGINAL: JW

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

As per the manual, in the full 43-45 campaign you have 3 separate VP counters tied to the allied Strat bombing:
1) Axis industry
2) U-boat factories
3) V-bomb sites

Point 2) and 3) are tied to the date your in.
On 43, the game keeps track of how many u-boat factories there are, and how much you damage, and gives you a VP penalty for the amount of u-boat factories not damaged at the end of each turn. Meaning, if you bomb 100% of the u-boat factories, you get a 0 penalty per turn.

On 44 and 45, the game STOPS keeping track of u-boat factories, and starts keeping track of V-bomb sites and factories, using the same system as per the u-boats.

Point 1 is a bit more tricky.
The axis industry is divided in 5 categories:
1)German Manpower
2)German Heavy Industry
3)Axis Oil Factories
4)Axis Fuel Factories
5)Axis Synthetic Fuel Factories

So, bombing, per example, a french armaments factory nets you absolutely 0 VPs.

Now, onto more detail. There are a total of 8202 factories that go into those last 5 categories.
1)German Manpower - 5973 points, totaling 72.8%
2)German Heavy Industry - 1392 points, totaling 17%
3)Axis Oil Factories - 260 points, totaling 3.2%
4)Axis Fuel Factories - 332 points, totaling 4%
5)Axis Synthetic Fuel Factories - 245 points, totaling 3%

With these numbers, you can see that german manpower centers should be a priority from a VP point of view, but there are a few other options that i would like to point out:

Image
As you can see, the Hamburg region is an extremely rich target for 43 bombing.
1st, you have 77% of the u-boat factories in the vicinity (red targets), plus, near 20% of all the oil and fuel production for the axis. 20% oil and fuel means 1.44% of the total possible strat bombing targets, just for a 1 hex radius region around Hamburg. Either you play allies or axis, this is definitely an area you want to strat bomb\defend.

Next, the holy Grail of the Axis oil production, the area near Bucharest (check the minimap if your lost)

Image
52% of all the oil production, plus 25% of fuel production. you will need mainland italy airbases to hit these fields, but once you do, you have access to a full 2.66% of the total possible strat bombing targets, plus a big hit to oil production.

Finaly, let me mention this area:
Image
Its near Breslau, meaning deep into polish territory, but in just 2 hexes you have 25% of all the Synthetic fuel production for the Axis, meaning 1.5% of total strat VP points. Worth the shot if you B17 bombers can reach them

As for the German Heavy factories and Manpower centers, the high concentration spots should be easy to pick, and the AI does a good job at it (just set your priorities via Air directive screen). Hope this helps.

How do I get to the charts you are showing on the maps for U Boat Factories, Oil Production, etc., in the format you are displaying it. I just can't find that data in that form. Thanks for your help.

Hi JW.

The charts are from the Axis turn. Go to the production screen (P), and click the industry you want to watch.
It's a little bit of homework if you never play Axis, but in the end, if you spend 10 minutes with them, you are able to identify hot areas for bombing.
JWW
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

ORIGINAL: JW

ORIGINAL: Jajusha


The charts are from the Axis turn. Go to the production screen (P), and click the industry you want to watch.
It's a little bit of homework if you never play Axis, but in the end, if you spend 10 minutes with them, you are able to identify hot areas for bombing.

Thanks. I should have thought of that. Instead I spent half an hour trying to find it on all the Allied side.

JocMeister
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by JocMeister »

On a related note. What kind of losses per week is "acceptable" for the 8th AF? I´m currently loosing around 150-250 planes per week. Losses are exclusively HB (B-17s). I´m fearful I´m loosing too many planes and pilots.
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cfulbright
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by cfulbright »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

On a related note. What kind of losses per week is "acceptable" for the 8th AF? I´m currently loosing around 150-250 planes per week. Losses are exclusively HB (B-17s). I´m fearful I´m loosing too many planes and pilots.
Joc - aren't you flying escort fighters on those missions? You should have at least some fighter losses.

I typically run two 8th AF Bomb City AD's, each bombing three days a week at High Intensity. I bomb at 28K feet if there is flak in the city. I'll usually lose about 20-25 bombers per AD, or 40-50 per turn.

Cary
JocMeister
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

On a related note. What kind of losses per week is "acceptable" for the 8th AF? I´m currently loosing around 150-250 planes per week. Losses are exclusively HB (B-17s). I´m fearful I´m loosing too many planes and pilots.
Joc - aren't you flying escort fighters on those missions? You should have at least some fighter losses.

I typically run two 8th AF Bomb City AD's, each bombing three days a week at High Intensity. I bomb at 28K feet if there is flak in the city. I'll usually lose about 20-25 bombers per AD, or 40-50 per turn.

Cary

I´m still early on (turn 5 on the main campaign) and no fighters have the range to reach targets in Germany. I´m currently hitting U-boat targets around Hamburg.

I do loose some fighters but not connected to 8th operations.
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cfulbright
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by cfulbright »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
I´m still early on (turn 5 on the main campaign) and no fighters have the range to reach targets in Germany. I´m currently hitting U-boat targets around Hamburg.

I do loose some fighters but not connected to 8th operations.
What flight path are you taking to get to Hamburg? You should fly out over the North Sea to get there. My way points for Hamburg missions are:

104,162
107,161
119,161
123,161

And I set Schulau as the actual target hex, with an area size of 5 or 6.

But you might also look at bombing the Ruhr, which your fighters may have the range to reach. Move them up to bases as far east as possible, say around Harwich and Canterbury. And make sure the loadouts are set to maximum external fuel tanks for longest range.

Cary
JocMeister
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
I´m still early on (turn 5 on the main campaign) and no fighters have the range to reach targets in Germany. I´m currently hitting U-boat targets around Hamburg.

I do loose some fighters but not connected to 8th operations.
What flight path are you taking to get to Hamburg? You should fly out over the North Sea to get there. My way points for Hamburg missions are:

104,162
107,161
119,161
123,161

And I set Schulau as the actual target hex, with an area size of 5 or 6.

But you might also look at bombing the Ruhr, which your fighters may have the range to reach. Move them up to bases as far east as possible, say around Harwich and Canterbury. And make sure the loadouts are set to maximum external fuel tanks for longest range.

Cary

Regarding Hamburg I am flying over the North Sea. Don´t have the exact hexes in memory but I´m flying pretty far North to avoid as many air bases as possible. Most losses are to flak and enemy fighters despite that.

How bad are the losses? Are they sustainable? Are they what people normally experience?

Thanks for the advice regarding the Ruhr. I´m currently using the RAF for night attacks over the Ruhr. Results have been...disappointing. I´ll probably shift the 8th to hitting the Ruhr once I get a little bit more damage done to the u-boats.

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Nico165b165
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by Nico165b165 »

ORIGINAL: Carterjon

Nico, can you provide any insight into how you avoid a major debacle as the Allies? I lose almost 200 aircraft a turn, and the Axis AI keeps getting a major victory against me. I see you are getting that magnitude of losses but I don't seem to be able to get the VPs you do. Do you create ADs with much tighter areas over selected targets or use large target areas as the automatic ADs create by default? Do you mess with altitude or other parameters?

Thanks.

Postscript: managed to eke out a minor Allied victory by targeting very tight areas that focussed on the factory types I wanted to bomb, rather than the large ones that the AI set up by default. Maybe that's the key.

Sorry, didn't see your post. But basically you have the point : sending your bombers above flak or in some interceptors will get you some losses. So you want these losses compensated by a maximum VP effect, and that means targeting precisely the best targets. See Jajusha's earlier posts here.

I still need to be a lot better at avoiding losses. Higher altitude will get less flak losses but also less destruction. A question of fine balance. A better fatigue management will lessen the operational losses. And a last thing I did not try untill now but will test : changing the AD's paths to avoid flak (shift-O to spot the flak).

carlkay58
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by carlkay58 »

Check to see the production numbers of the aircraft you are losing. If you are losing less than that number, then you are doing ok. If you are losing more, then you are not ok!
LuciusSulla
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RE: Tips on how to play strategic air campaign?

Post by LuciusSulla »

Actually, the two groups of B-24 based in Benghazi could reach the Ploesti oil industries.
However, it is a really long flight and the crew would sustain heavy fatigue; and the bombing result is not optimistic as you could not recon the area and cannot choose maximum loadout.
The initial Romanian fighters stationed there does not seem to be a problem. You would suffer more loss from operational loss than air combat with those fighters.
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