LiquidSky (WA) vrs Pelton (GE)

[Flaviusx]

Pelton, you praise people who think outside the box, but I think you need to understand that most people do not want to "think outside the box" because they are approaching this as a historical wargame, not as a sandbox ahistorical experience.

I'm glad that we have people around like yourself to test these things to destruction, but sometimes I wonder why you are even playing these sorts of games. You seem to be missing the point of them.

[carlkay58]

The point of this game is the same point of all other games - to have fun! If you enjoy the historical aspects of the game then play it that way. Not everyone plays for that.

I am getting my butt whipped by Pelton in another game - but it is interesting and other than the occasional frustration (I lost 48 troop ships and three airborne divisions in one turn sailing from Brest to Cornwall - all through friendly waters! I then promptly shut off the computer and took a walk outside in -5F weather to cool down a bit.) I am having fun.

On the other hand, I have discovered a good bit about the game and testing the new versions so that they work for everyone when they come out.

[LiquidSky]

Well..it was fun while it lasted.

On this last turn, I noticed that he launched a rather daring and large scale Luftwaffe raid on my ports.

In retaliation, I tasked BC and 8th Air Force on a large swathe of German territory to bomb airfields. I forget the exact number but it was around 500 aircraft destroyed on the ground.
And around 15-20 airfields bombed.

As well..the turn before I got my Hurricanes back from retraining as bombers. And used them and the typhoons to absolutely wreck Panzer Lehr and damage a PanzerGr Division.

Then I used my Amphs to cross the first Ferry hexes into the Walcheren, defeating the regiments he had guarding there. I dropped the two US para divisions on the other side on the mainland to sieze the other end.

Patton then unleashed his armour managing to take (but not advance into) the hex adjacent to Antwerp. (My final goal).

The Turn is Dec 25th, 1943. Hmm..what do you know, the war was over for Christmas. [8D]

VP's as they stand are -131, but I got 8 last turn. Probably would have been around 4-5 the next for casualties. But at least I am getting a positive every turn. I know the v-wpns are coming, but I suspect I would have taken the launch sites with Patton before the spring was up. And I would have bombed most of the factories as they are nicely clumped together.
And with the Luftwaffe wrecked, I would be getting bombing points every turn to counter any casualty points.

Even if the EF box was allowed, this would probably have been a game ending strategy for the axis. I would have ground down any Germans sent to this front and in the end, I would win on points from EF box failures and the extra turns.

Anyways, here is screenshot I took. I would have taken a lot more if knew the end was coming [:-]

All in all I want to congratulate Pelton for making me think very hard. He is not an easy opponent, and if I showed him any weakness, he would have jumped all over me.

Oh yeah..in Italy, my French had landed in Taranto (gift of the Italians), and with the use of an Amph I sent to Sicily (for just this purpose), crossed the Straits into the boot and were very slowly advancing with any new divisions I got as reinforcements.
As it stood I had a couple americans, an indian and a couple French divisions taking Italy. No doubt I would have hit a weak line somewhere, and being weak myself, would have had to stop.

All in all though, I ask that you not be too hard on Pelton. I knew my opponent from his many AAR's so I had a fairly good (and it turned out pretty accurate) view of what his disposition of forces would be. I then capitalized ruthlessly. He had no idea of who I was, and probably assumed I was like the other newbies marching into his waiting traps. I have no doubt my invasion came as a shock. And if it was me, I may have broken a few objects lying around my computer desk [:o] [:o]

Now I think I need to play the Axis....and see if the Pandora's box I opened can be closed. But I know very little about them, so I need a few days to figure out a plan of defence.

[LiquidSky]

For those curious, I had 99% of the spitfire squadrons, all the hurricanes (as bombers) along the coast of Netherlands. In Amsterdam, I had 20 squadrons of night fighters, although I hadn't gotten much chance to use them.

I had 800,000 tons of supply sitting in my ports. I was actually debating on turning of supply transfers and let him interdict my ocean as a way of attriting his airforce since I had enough supply to probably last a year. And it would save my cargo ships as they wouldn't be travelling across.

I lost about 30 troop ship points from invading Sicily and moving all the troops back to England. I lost about 130 when I invaded Netherlands. But it didn't really matter since I had almost every division in Netherlands...I didn't need troop ships much anymore.

I used the 2nd Br Army, under Anderson with the 4 airborne divisions and 9 others (mostly to hold ground). 7th Army under Patton had 9 armoured divisions, and 6 infantry divisions (all fully motorized). 8th army under Montgomery had 11 infantry divisions and a lot of artillery.

My divisions I would put 3 combat engineers, then anti-tank..then AA (as filler until I could replace them with newer support). I had a couple divisions with armour. None of the multi-role units were attached to infantry. Although I was going to attach the assault tanks to the New Zeelanders which had just arrived in a port in England for debarkation to Netherlands.

My armour, I attached tank destroyers. For the American 3 armour divisions, I attached the SP Artillery. That was an experiment that I liked. Especially in the initial landing when I attacked Germans out in the open, you could see the CV on the counter drop to almost nothing during the combat. Not as useful against dug in Germans though.

The airforce I spent a lot of time transferring. I built an airfield in every place I could in eastern Anglica. I even built them in London. Just paved over Buckingham Palace..its not like it was being used for anything productive.

Dover...Ramsgate...etc....all were very useful in getting more P-47's to reach the Ruhr.

Again..I want to thank Pelton for the game. Hopefully he wasn't bored [:D]

[NotOneStepBack]

I really think you guys should've played this out, just to see what happens.

[RCHarmon]

Pelton disappoints....again.


There was every reason to continue the game.

[LiquidSky]

I know I had released all his garrisons...although I suspect that anything mobile is probably already out of the garrison zones. Whats left is probably static and cant move anyways. I only have about 40ish divisions, and all my multi-role brigades...so I was going to use them and a lot of fortification units with artillery to hold a line, while I take Antwerp and the launch sites. Taking the sites means I don't have to bomb them, and can bomb more important victory hexes.

There are a lot of cities in my corner of the world, so I was going to get a fair number of vps per turn....probably enough to guarantee a minor victory for sure..possibly a major one. To get a decisive I was going to have to earn it, but I have a good base to earn it from.

I just lack the units to move into Germany proper. I thought about taking Essen. But its a national supply source...and I am sure I read something somewhere about that releasing something for the Germans. I couldn't find it though.

I probably would have ended up holding a line around Amiens to the top of the Rhine. I would have used my cavalry groups (I think I was up to two) as nuisance raiders running around France. I might have advanced a line of brigades to surround Paris...who knows. I am not sure how much stuff I would be facing after releasing all his garrisons. On the plus side, I would never see another negative garrison vp point again.

I understand ending the game early. It is a loss for the Germans. The only thing to learn now would be how to fight a land war, and he is quite the expert on that already.

And if he has nothing in Italy because he has to try and hold back my hordes..my French/various divisions will advance and take cities until I sit in bad terrain and tie up whatever forces he has down there. More free vp's.

[JocMeister]

Shame to see this end. Would have been very interesting to see how it played out!

Congratulations are in order though. [:)]

[Flaviusx]

It was a done deal, Pelton did the rational thing in throwing in the towel. But when you exploit the game as he does, you open yourself to counterexploits. Eventually someone figures it out, and Liquidsky did. Then the gimmick blows up on you.

Pelton and I are friends and testers going back a ways but I have a serious philosophical disagreement with how he approaches these games. I think everybody would be better off if they prized historical fidelity rather than gimmicks. It is almost impossible to stamp these out in a complex game design. At some point players have to trust each other not do ridiculous things and game the game. Once that happens, it becomes a race to the bottom, and the last exploit wins. This game is a case in point.

[Peltonx]

My mistakes.

1. I did not think WA could land so much so early in France- turn 10. This game was turn 20, but it can be done even sooner with about 75% of the force.
2. Ports are the key and a small Panzer Corp in reserve.

Can this be countered without using the EF Box?

Yes. As I have found with all the landing areas there are a handful of key hexes not counting the ports themselves.

With the EF Box not checked Germany has to rotate out GD/PD and ID's in the past I had rotated them out to Italy, but in the future I be leaving all but 3 in Europe.
After turn 22 Germany gains strength very fast.

The only down side to this change is Italy will not be nearly as strong, but strong enough not to be a cake walk.

Flaviusx I am always looking for the knifes edge. I have found it so now I can play that edge.

This game is allot like WitE was before 1.08, there is a very clear edge of what Germany can lose in units and where units have to be garrisoned.

Now much like WitE by turn x I know if I have won or lost or the game is still in play.

[Seminole]

Pelton and I are friends and testers going back a ways but I have a serious philosophical disagreement with how he approaches these games. I think everybody would be better off if they prized historical fidelity rather than gimmicks. It is almost impossible to stamp these out in a complex game design. At some point players have to trust each other not do ridiculous things and game the game. Once that happens, it becomes a race to the bottom, and the last exploit wins. This game is a case in point.

It's almost as if the designers had something in mind when they picked the geography and time period...
But some people prefer to always be in Middle Earth.

[marion61]

I still don't get the reference to Middle Earth? Enlightenment?

[Seminole]

I still don't get the reference to Middle Earth? Enlightenment?

Pelton's shorthand for 'fantasyland'.
Usually invoked when his mix-maxing the game engine produces a queer result.

[LiquidSky]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

My mistakes.

1. I did not think WA could land so much so early in France- turn 10. This game was turn 20, but it can be done even sooner with about 75% of the force.
2. Ports are the key and a small Panzer Corp in reserve.

Can this be countered without using the EF Box?

Yes. As I have found with all the landing areas there are a handful of key hexes not counting the ports themselves.

With the EF Box not checked Germany has to rotate out GD/PD and ID's in the past I had rotated them out to Italy, but in the future I be leaving all but 3 in Europe.
After turn 22 Germany gains strength very fast.

The only down side to this change is Italy will not be nearly as strong, but strong enough not to be a cake walk.

Flaviusx I am always looking for the knifes edge. I have found it so now I can play that edge.

This game is allot like WitE was before 1.08, there is a very clear edge of what Germany can lose in units and where units have to be garrisoned.

Now much like WitE by turn x I know if I have won or lost or the game is still in play.

I'm hoping this is the case...that the Germans can balance a lighter force in Italy for the ability to stop an early invasion of Europe...

That way everybody wins..WA gets to invade Italy and make some progress before being stopped by terrain (and reinforcing Germans). And has something to do for the first year other then just bomb Germany.
The Germans are hamstrung a bit until the allies invade somewhere, then they can react...rather then react in advance to hindsight.