Bad Hair Day for the USN

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:17 am

During an ongoing PBEM game, launched a massive strike at a larger IJN CV TF.

The results made me want to cry.

The morning strike:

Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 81
A6M3 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 114
TBD Devastator x 60

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 6 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 82 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 41 damaged
TBD Devastator x 26 destroyed
TBD Devastator x 29 damaged

ENS L.Minobe of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 9

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo
DD Oboro
CVL Shoho
CVL Ryujo
CA Chokai
CVL Zuiho

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Gili Gili at 17,42

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 81
A6M3 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 15
F4F-4 Wildcat x 37
SBD Dauntless x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 9 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 9 damaged

ENS L.Minobe of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 10

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga

The afternoon strike was somewhat "normal" minus the hundred something bubbas splashed that morning.

174 strike aircraft go unescorted to their deaths, and 18 get all the escorts.

Strikes originated from CVs in two seperate TFs.

Coordinated uncoordination.

I can understand penny packet strikes, and seperations of escorts, but this is too much.

Comments?

I would prefer not to see crap like this in WitP.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:26 am

What the hell happened to the escorts. Not even an ensign would send an attack out unescorted against a CV group. Unless they thought it was a TF unprotected by CAP?

Mr.Frag · Post by **Mr.Frag** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 6:06 pm

Was it two separate CV groups there or one big one?

I see that the second raid hogged all your escorts so obviously there was no settings issue.

I wonder if group number #1 wan not running CAP so your boy thought easy lunch, but group #2 was capped and in the same hex ... oops ...

Just a thought, based on not much info ...

Tankerace · Post by **Tankerace** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:25 pm

Ouch. I know what you mean. In my last AI game the same basic thing happened to me, about 60 planes went unescorted and got mauled. Luckly though, it pulled down the CAP enough that my second strike got 2 bombs into one of the CVs, leaving her unable to launch aircraft. Still, I agree. One attack (especially a smaller one) shouldn't be receiveng all the "little friends".

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 12:53 am

In the scenario #19 game against Mogami (pre v2.30) I quit the game because of the same thing happening. Yamaguchi and Ozawa with TFs in the same hex sent 76 (IIRC) Vals unescorted against a like number of Zeros over at CV TF while sending about 18 bombers with several score escorts agains a surface fleet. And the afternoon wave was just as devastating.

Sorry to hear this is still possible in 2.30.

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:07 am

Mr Frag,

I had 2 carriers in each TF, with 3 fighter sqn set to 60% CAP and 1 to 70%. Both carriers in the same hex, with Mitscher the TF CDR in one, and McCain the other.

I had all the strike aircraft from the carriers combine in one mission, and all the fighters in the other.

I had expected 2-4 strikes, but nothing like that.

This game was started under a previous version in JAN of this year.

Mr.Frag · Post by **Mr.Frag** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:25 am

No, I was asking about the enemy CV's being in two groups, not yours. Wondering if the that detected no CAP on one of the groups and threw no escorts at it, but the other CV group was flying the cap ... that sort of logic ...

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:45 am

Yes, he had his in two groups, but they were not providing CAP anywhere but in thier hex.

If he hadn't been in a coastal hex, it would have been worse, but then I probably woudn't have attacked him either.

Couldn't say much more.

crsutton · Post by **crsutton** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:45 am

May still be a bug. However, it "should" happen but only rarely. Air formations got lost and failed to join up all the time. Confusion and inexperience was the norm for air operations at that time. But in an airstrike that large, I can accept one group of fighters getting lost but not all of them. Also, would like to see some of those bombers just abort rather than attack into the teeth of such odds and suffer such casualties. The game is good but not perfect yet.

Macabre · Post by **Macabre** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:01 am

Hi Everyone,

I've been lurking this forum for a while but just recently (a week ago) purchased UV. After a week of learning the game in the tutorial provided, I felt I was ready to jump into the Coral Sea. Any way after playing very carefully I was able to manouver behind the Japanese carriers and receive the first strike. To my dismay 90% of my Dauntless went in the first strike without fighter support. After meeting the Zeros with out fighter escort the Dauntless became fodder and I find myself wanting to shelf the game.

This is a game with fantastic potential and I will support Matrix buy buying WitP also but I really think this needs to be addressed.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:33 am

You need to play more to develop a thick skin. Play the AI until you get comfortable then go to PBEM, that will test your fortitude. It is very easy to quit but the game lasts a long time and you can turn things around. Be prepared for losses and look to your reinforcements. Remember this is a game of skill even though luck is a component. Read the War Room Forum for ideas. It takes time to develop skill. Learn from your mistakes.

Tanaka · Post by **Tanaka** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:27 am

Originally posted by Drex
You need to play more to develop a thick skin. Play the AI until you get comfortable then go to PBEM, that will test your fortitude. It is very easy to quit but the game lasts a long time and you can turn things around. Be prepared for losses and look to your reinforcements. Remember this is a game of skill even though luck is a component. Read the War Room Forum for ideas. It takes time to develop skill. Learn from your mistakes.

Well put!!!

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:07 pm

You helped with with that one Tanaka-formerly-known-as- Iceboy.I sure was not feeling too good at the start of our game but I've also learned to take early losses in stride. Of course its easier to do when you're the allies. As Japanese it would really hurt.

Sonny · Post by **Sonny** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:24 pm

It just happened to me again in another PBEM game. The first three (small) waves went unescorted against my opponents CV TF. His bombers were of course all escorted and sank one CV and badly damaged two others.

Yamamoto · Post by **Yamamoto** » Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:35 pm

The game may just be modeling the reality that strikes get seperated and some elements arrive before the others do. Maybe it would be better if there was a message saying "Strike elements get seperated and arrive in seperate waves". That way the player wouldn't think that the computer is sending his planes in unescorted on purpose.

Yamamoto

Mike_B20 · Post by **Mike_B20** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 12:05 am

Just watched the move Battle of Midway.
Man, those early carrier battles were run by newbies.
Little scouting done by the Japs and poor cohesion due to range on the US side.

Seems that strikes at maximum range should suffer a penalty for cohesion as there is a fuel problem and flights can't hang around to group up.

The larger formation of dive bombers being unescorted seems very strange but I guess it could happen, especially early in the war.

CapAndGown · Post by **CapAndGown** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:25 am

Originally posted by Mike_B20
Seems that strikes at maximum range should suffer a penalty for cohesion as there is a fuel problem and flights can't hang around to group up.

Actually, I think I saw somewhere that range does matter for coordination purposes with longer ranged strikes less likely to come in as one massive alpha strike. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the Blessed GG also had weather factored in as well.

One thing that I think I found is that very low fatigue, high morale units are also more likely to launch a coordinated strike. Could be my imagination. But if you are the defensive (tactically), then you can keep your carriers out of range and with your groups stood down until just before the carrier battle. Then switch your fighters over to flying some CAP as the carriers steam into duke it out.

And for anyone who has been caught with their air groups resting when the enemy carriers show up, here's a tip:
The best way to stand down fighters on carriers is to set them to 100% escort, i.e. 0% CAP. This will rest the fighters, but if the enemy unexpectedly shows up, at least your return strike will have maximum escort. Call it the revenge method of resting your fighters: even though you are going to lose your carriers, your own strike should have an excellent chance of getting through.

Oh, and it should be clear from the preceding that the best way to rest DBs, TBs is to set them on Naval Attack with an alternate mission of rest.

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:27 am

Just started a new game as the Japanese and my opponent met me outside G-G with his two CVs. His first attack was by 32 unescorted SBDs. I decimated him. So this phenomenon seems pretty prevalent to me.

Nasrullah · Post by **Nasrullah** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:37 am

Decimated is an understatement, Drex. Your opponent (whom we need not publicly embarass by naming) has for 35 yrs lived within a stone's throw of the US Naval academy and battled daily with officers and gentlemen for parking and bar-rail space, is not the least suprised at the recent display of hapless buffoonery by
TF 201.

denisonh · Post by **denisonh** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:00 am

The funny thing about this strike was that the target was 3 hexes away with clear weather.

Units had high morale, as it was the first airstrike of the game for those air wings.

Explains why so many bombers were coordinated into one strike.

But if it was good enough to coordinate that many bombers, surely some of those fighters could find a formation of 174 bombers on a clear day, or at lease not all get seprated.

Yea, $hit hapens, but given the clear weather, I have my doubts as to the liklihood of such an outcome.