Draws/Point Totals

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 6:51 pm

A couple quick topics from an SPWaW rookie. First, why so many draws? 99% of the scenarios I play end in draws. There's no fun in that. If the case is as someone mentioned when he said "Even though the game says it's a draw, you know who really won", then why isn't the real game scoring done properly? It seems silly to battle for hours and know who the clear winner was, only to have the game tell you it was a draw.

Second, why are victory points for losses determined by pure losses and not by percentage of forces lost? If I'm the German defender and have 25 units (of various types) and am being attacked by 50 Russian units, one Russian unit should be roughly half the point value as one German unit for that scenario. That would mean the loss of one German unit will have a greater impact on the game (tactically and strategically) than losing one Russian unit. I say this because if I'm playing the German in this case and I eliminate 20 or so Russian units, I'm almost guaranteed a draw, regardless of my losses. I just think the individual unit point values should be modified per scenario to account for their importance in that particular game. Maybe that's the way it's already done and I just don't realize it. All I know is I'm getting tired of playing games that result in draw after draw after draw when I know there was a clear winner in each case.

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:14 pm

Victory point scores are also derived from control of the Victory Hexes. Not all VH's are worth the same amount. Some are a per turn value. Each scenario designer can set these amounts. Put your mouse over the VH and see what pops up for info. You can get a idea if the battle is more concerned with losses or occupation of the VH's, by their relative value.

Designers may also set the value of particular units higher or lower than normal to reflect their importance to the task at hand.

For instance, play the newer version of the Stalingrad Campaign and loose a couple of those ammo trucks and you will see what I mean.

THe H2H version of SPWAW has units rated and valued somewhat differently from standard 7.1 . Download that and give it a try. It may be more to your liking.

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:19 pm

Kirk, there is a pretty good set of tactical guides by Larry Holt available at Tankheads site. It helped me get away from the draw syndrome, somewhat.

http://www.tankhead.ca/SPWaW/downloads.asp

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:25 pm

SPWaW Victory Ratios explained.

Human vs computer
More than 1-3 Decisive Loss
1-3 to 3-1 Draw
3-1 to 7-1 Minor victory
7-1 Higher Major victory

The odds vs human player are a little lower. This is due to the predictable action of the AI in computer generated battles.

Human vs. Human
More than 1-2 Decisive Loss
1-2 to 2-1 Draw
2-1 to 6-1 Minor victory
6-1 Higher Major victory

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:54 pm

I understand what the victory requirments are, I'm just frustrated at why they're where they're at. I played a scenario a couple nights ago where I clearly won. I controlled all the objectives and killed a lot more of the enemy than he did of me. The victory point margin was 2.75 to 1. To me it seemed like a clear victory. My point is why even have a victory nametag such as "draw" or "marginal victory" when it's used so infrequently. Why not just publish the victory point totals and let the player judge for himself who won?

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:43 am

Kirk, I don't want to sound superior or snotty or whatever, but perhaps a little more attention to improving you skills in combined arms tactics is in order. If you are expert at SPWAW, then draws will be a thing of the past for you unless you are playing a very well designed scenario.

If I get a draw in a run-of-the-mill scenario, I consider it a humiliating failure on my part. You should be mopping up the floor against the AI in many scenarios and almost all of them if you are playing randomly generated scenarios.

Perhaps if you thought of the scoring system as if it were being graded on a curve. i.e. If everyone scores from 80 to 100% on a test and you got an 85%, did you really get a "B" grade?

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:26 am

I understand I'm not the next coming of Erwin Rommel yet, but I'm asking why the huge draw region from a mathematical standpoint? Since my guess is a large percentage of my games (I only play the historical scenarios) end up somewhere in that 1 to 3 to 3 to 1 range, a large percentage of scenarios end up as draws. I don't know about the rest of people that frequent this board, but when most people start playing a game they're not experts yet. How much fun is it for a newbie to play game after game that end up as draws? Maybe the game needs variable victory conditions based on the skill of the player. Just because a few people out there are experts doesn't mean all the victory conditions should be based on their level of play. I'm a casual SP gamer who gets tired of 99% of my games ending up as draws.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:29 am

I don't see that it matters what tag SP applies to the result. Surely all that really matters is that the battle itself was enjoyable.

As far as historical scenarios go, for many of them 'Draw' as a result represents a RL outcome; you have done as well as your historical predecessors, and therefore a 'Draw' result is not necessarily so negative. Furthermore, scenarios in which 12:1 overwhelming victories are possible are probably not going to be very exciting to play - they'll be like AI Battles, where you usually end up having slaughtered a couple of thousand grunts and a couple of hundred M4s (;) whoops... should that be Soft Vehicles?), and have probably wasted your time.

'Draw' results in scenarios are probably due to suffering excess losses yourself, more than not securing VHexes or taking out enemy formations; you won, but at too high a price. I always pay close attention to the time available in a scenario and try and work out the most efficient attack possible in the time available - if it saves your forces, it increases your victory (as well as saving your forces, surely an objective for any commander - Soviet excepted).

Small-scale battalion-level combat is not often going to be overwhelmingly decisive; major victories occur when armies clash, not Armored Infantry Platoons.

Raskolnikov

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:34 am

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
they'll be like AI Battles, where you usually end up having slaughtered a couple of thousand grunts and a couple of hundred M4s (;) whoops... should that be Soft Vehicles

I love you.

Goblin

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:38 am

It's not just that M4s are Soft Vehicles... it's the Soft Commanders who use them. Sadly no category for them on the kill sheet.

R.

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:56 am

So it doesn't seem odd to anyone but me to have a game where a large percentage of the battles are considered draws? I've played Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, Squad Leader, and many other wargames thousands of times. In all my 30+ years of wargaming I have played only a handful of draws - until SPWaW. All I'm saying is there should either be a clear victor a large percentage of the time or they should just do away with listing a victor altogether. Just list the points and leave it at that. Someone said in a previous post "But you know who really won the battle". If that's the case, why don't they just tell me? All I know is if I played all those wargames over the years and 80% of them resulted in draws all the time I wouldn't have continued playing them. What's the point in playing any game if the large percentage of contests are draws? I guess I should go back to playing tic-tac-toe where every game is a "cat" game and there's never a winner.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:44 am

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
It's not just that M4s are Soft Vehicles... it's the Soft Commanders who use them. Sadly no category for them on the kill sheet.

R.

Too bad....sissys....

zzsteven · Post by **zzsteven** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:46 am

When I first started playing a couple of months ago most of my battles did end in draws..... or losses, but this was just the start of the learning curve. Many scenarios were restarted after a couple of turns when I realized that my tactics were lacking. My first successful scenario, an assualt on a French fortress, may have ended in a draw but I had learned something.... how to move my forces. Learned how to use smoke in another scenario that ended in a draw. My best scenario was a rescue Peipper one. Even though it also ended in a draw all but 5 of my units survived and were headed to the exit hex, just ran out of turns.

Draws are a part of the learning curve. My tactics have changed and I very seldom get a marginal victory now. One day soon I hope to play a PBEM game and of course the learning curve will start all over again...... unless their driving those M4 baby carriages then my victory will be assured.

zz

robot · Post by **robot** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:22 pm

Maybe all those other games werent as good as spwaw. If you win most of your games would you be happy. Not me i would soon quit it. The losses and the draws is what makes me try harder. Obviously your tactics are not good enough in SPWAW to do more then a draw. I have sxeen on this borard several seasoned veterans get draws. Its the scenario you play that is eiyher harder or easier as the case may be. When i first started i very seldom got draws. But i got a lot of losses. That was six yrs ago. Still get a few draws and an occassional loss too. But that is to my own blundering tatics not the game.

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:29 pm

I'm in the middle of my 1st PBEM, against rbrunsman and I'll be **** glad if I get a draw!!!!!

Gary Tatro · Post by **Gary Tatro** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:45 pm

Originally posted by Jim1954
I'm in the middle of my 1st PBEM, against rbrunsman and I'll be **** glad if I get a draw!!!!!

Get him to purchase all ski infantry.

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:49 pm

Well, it's May 1941 on the island of Crete... we don't have ski troops but for some odd reason the generator put rice paddies all over the map!

I'll suggest an alpine battle next time. lol

Kirk · Post by **Kirk** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:11 pm

"Maybe all those other games werent as good as spwaw. If you win most of your games would you be happy. Not me i would soon quit it. The losses and the draws is what makes me try harder. Obviously your tactics are not good enough in SPWAW to do more then a draw."

The first sentence in that statement is completely ludicrous. Are you saying Panzerblitz or Squad Leader aren't good games? They're classics for crying out loud. Heck, all SP is is a computer version of Squad Leader. I dare say many of the games I've played are even better (I can hear people gasping) than SPWaW. At least every time I play one of those games I know who won.

Let's take on the second sentence. I didn't say I wanted to win all my games. I said I wanted a decision, one way or another. Do you watch hockey or soccer? Would you be happy if 80% of the games you attended ended in ties?

The third sentence makes sense, but I feel I can learn more from a loss than a draw.

All I'm saying is that there can be a huge difference on the battlefield in who is doing better than who, yet the end result can be the same. Either I can be kicking butt and have a 2.9 to 1 victory point margin, or I can be getting stomped 1 to 2.9 and the end result will be the same. That just doesn't seem right. Let's forget the historical/replay/wargame aspect and just think about it like any other game like Monopoly or Battleship or something. How many of those games end in ties? All I'm saying is that a draw should be something that happens a very small percentage of the time, regardless of whether I'm an expert or a relative newbie. It shouldn't be the norm, it should be the exception. I'll admit I still have a lot to learn about the game, but when I feel I've won I'd like to know that and when I've gotten stomped I'd like to know that too.

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:04 pm

Raskolnikov, you made a very good post. Especially the knock against M4s (where are Jess & Hawk (traitor) to read that and get offended?).

Gary, SHUT UP!!!:mad:

(Lesson for newbies from a veteran who learned something new the hard way: Ski Troops can't Close Assault.)

You guys that are just starting should practice against the AI to get to know the units and a few tactics, but I'm telling you, PBEM is where SPWAW really is outstanding. I never play against the AI any more (unless its a Mega Campaign while I'm waiting for a PBEM turn to show up in my mailbox). To think of all those years wasted playing since SPI came out just playing the AI.

Learn the basics and then start playing against a real person. You can ask questions and you'll learn alot faster that way. A Marginal Victory is all the more sweet when you only get them rarely.

Jim, you may get a Draw. A Draw with more points to you.

You are doing better than you think (I think). Which, of course, is what makes PBEM so awesome. Many times you just don't know exactly how well you are doing until the end.

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:11 pm

It may look like I'm doing better from your point of view, but it's a bloody mess on my side. Still, the excitement level is SEVERAL rungs higher going against a live opponent. I like the mega's too but it's not the same.

I like to think of all the time spent against the AI (and there will be more, as you said Bob), as boot camp for the real battles.