Not a draw

[fiddlers25]

Just finished a PBEM game for Mill Springs. The game ended many turns prematurely, around 12:20 i think, because CSA morale dropped to 1.40, which my opponent said was below the limit. When I look at the 'victory' screen it says 'Draw', when I look at the list of games to play in Multiplayer it says fiddlers25 (me playing as USA) wins. Here are the circumstances:

Casualties close to 3/1 in my favor: 861 CSA vs 321 USA
CSA held all 3 victory hexes at the time their morale dropped. I was starting to advance towards 2 of the hexes, there were plenty of turns left and 1 was guaranteed to fall (only protected by a small cav unit, with 3 of my units converging on it) and at least 1 of the other 2 was very likely to fall.

problem 1 - the diverging conclusions from the multiplayer screen vs the victory screen (draw vs USA wins)
problem 2 - CSA morale drops so they'll leave the USA in possession of the field, the big difference in casualties, surely it cannot be considered a draw. shouldn't it be as simple as a victory if the other side's morale drops below the ending point?

[marcpennington]

I've seen similar results in small scenarios, as I've posted elsewhere.

I think there are two issues. First is that morale declines below the breaking point way too quickly in small scenarios, where one regiment with a negative morale has a disproportionate impact on the average morale of the side. Plus, in small scenarios, one often doesn't have the ability to pull a whole brigade out of line to rally and recover. This can lead to the scenario abruptly ending when otherwise it would seem a lot fighting is still to be done. Second, when one side's morale breaks, victory is calculated on who controls the victory hexes, with modifications based on the casualty levels. This can lead to strange outcomes where one side's morale breaks, but that side still "wins" the scenario thanks to being on top of more victory hexes at the end of the game.

[shoelessbivouac]

ORIGINAL: map66

I've seen similar results in small scenarios, as I've posted elsewhere.

I think there are two issues. First is that morale declines below the breaking point way too quickly in small scenarios, where one regiment with a negative morale has a disproportionate impact on the average morale of the side. Plus, in small scenarios, one often doesn't have the ability to pull a whole brigade out of line to rally and recover. This can lead to the scenario abruptly ending when otherwise it would seem a lot fighting is still to be done. Second, when one side's morale breaks, victory is calculated on who controls the victory hexes, with modifications based on the casualty levels. This can lead to strange outcomes where one side's morale breaks, but that side still "wins" the scenario thanks to being on top of more victory hexes at the end of the game.

That is indeed an unintuitive outcome, to be sure - i.e., when the side who's morale drops below the breaking point, hence, forcing the immediate cessation of all conflict, and yet results in a net victory doesn't ring right.

OTOH, your first point raised is also an excellent one, if only because in smaller scenarios, the morale loss of just a single ill-timed unit can spell instant defeat (at least that's what I've always experienced when this has happened - defeat, that is).

[ericbabe]

I'm not sure whether the server can display draws in the game list right now. A side with broken morale shouldn't be able to occupy victory hexes, but if the other side doesn't own any victory hexes at that point, then there might be a draw.

[AlessandroD]

I asked your feedback about the game by PM but I never got the answer, then I read this post, I know your thoughts at least [:)]

I was the opponent, and even if I think is not a draw as well I strongly disagree about your (you all) comments here, except the different victory screen issue of course.

I think is a perfect way to handle the player omniscient, you don't get points for casualty without control the objectives and it is a nice touch, IMHO.
It is not true to say that is enough a single unit to reach the breaking point, I had several routed units, then if you fight with all your units at once you cannot expect to end the game after several hours, in general if the players have 20 units want to use all of them immmediately (but is not a game problem, the armchair general's tactics are the problem).

Speaking about our game:
I lost almost all firefights because it's raining, my units are poorly armed (I haven't been able to break an encircled cavarly unit) and of course I made some tactical mistake, as rebel I have two brigades therefore if I almost have a brigade in bad shape I think is right to retreat (i.e. hit the breaking point).
You as Union totally forget your victory hexes because you perfectly know my OOB and my weapons, I was able to use my cavarly as flanking force and hold all VHs (especially your own VH), all your units were marching towards my infantry but your rear was uncovered but few minor units, no pickets around the map and in the last turns all your artillery was vulnerable to rear attack (my cavarly can see them).
Your plan was simple, a steady advance hex by hex again because you know the time (game turns) and the space (map limits), in a real fight if your main supply route is taken by enemy you should have diverted a brigade to retake it because you don't know how many units the enemy can deploy to cut your supply line.
You used a small cavarly unit instead (and maybe another small one) because you know all these informations.
If the VH more close to you was in your hand it would be an Union victory instead, also for the game not only for us [;)].

Therefore I like these victory conditions, they forced the player to play in a historical way.)

[ericbabe]

Sorry, I don't recall any questions by PM to which I didn't respond, though I sometimes get long PMs and may not respond verbosely to all the parts of them, and perhaps that happened in your case [:)]

We tried to design the battles so that each side can always comfortably hold one victory hex. If you are pushed off this hex, but then the opponent who drove you so far back ends up breaking due to low morale, we do reckon that this ought to be a draw rather than a victory, though I could see an argument that it might be a sort of 1-star victory instead. I'm open to refining these sorts of things as we get more feedback, but I wouldn't want to make major changes to the victory rules without more significant feedback.

[fiddlers25]

about "I asked your feedback about the game by PM but I never got the answer" - I did actually send a PM in response at that time
about "in a real fight if your main supply route is taken by enemy you should have diverted a brigade to retake it because you don't know how many units the enemy can deploy to cut your supply line. You used a small cavalry unit instead (and maybe another small one) because you know all these informations." - I had 3 units converging on the small CSA cav unit that temporarily grabbed that victory hex. In a real fight that CSA cav unit would soon either have run or surrendered.

about "If you are pushed off this hex, but then the opponent who drove you so far back ends up breaking due to low morale, we do reckon that this ought to be a draw rather than a victory". What precisely is breaking due to low morale supposed to imply? If it means the army then retreats from the field then that side should be considered to be holding no victory hexes in the final result.

[Ironclad]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I'm not sure whether the server can display draws in the game list right now.

It certainly hasn't done in the one game I've drawn so far. Ending showing the closing flag and a draw (which it was), my multiplayer screen shows my opponent as the winner. I don't know what his shows but clearly he got the draw screen too. Any idea when this will be rectified.