Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic ai formation behavior!

[aaatoysandmore]

This is WAR gentlemen. [:D] Mess with one of my favorite games and you've got yourselves a BIG one. [:D]

Actually you can gripe all you want. It's been griped about before and as you see it's been around a long time and still exists and is still a GREAT game.

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it. [:'(]

[pjsynnott]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it. [:'(]

One of the thing I disliked about Histwar was this kind of attitude on their forums. It's depressing to see it here too.

More illuminating, however, is a comment by one of the developers over on the Norbsoft SOWWL forum. He doesn't like the way brigade formations often look either, and has stated his intention to improve it as much as possible.

The corollary of your advice, then, seems to be that he should stop playing his own game...

[aaatoysandmore]

Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE. [:-]

There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Wrong!! cause it's been that way since the first 2nd Manassas and it's still around and so is Norb. Going on what now Norb 8 or 9 years?

EDIT: Chris you would know better than I how long the Take Command series has been around. Isn't it around 8 or 9 years now?

Who cares if it was 8, 9, 20 years? The fact that they can sell a game with this goofy behavior for any period only demonstrates that unfortunately it will probably never be fixed and thus appeal to a wider audience.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.

I hope you don't think you're doing the game or the developers any favors with your ridiculous comments? Instead of buying the game "later" now I'm thinking "never". I doubt I'm the only "malcontent".

[pjsynnott]

Spot on.I this guy thinks he's doing the game a favour, he's sadly deluded.

And I do like this game.

[pjsynnott]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE. [:-]

http://www.norbsoftdev.net/forum/96-dis ... ther#68611

Of course, if Norb himself disapproves, I'm sure you'll post the relevant link.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: psynnott

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Norb said that? I don't believe it till I see it from his on post. I don't believe NORB the HEAD developer said that at all since he knows it's been a problem from the beginning. Now if some wannbe developer said it I take it with a grain of salt cause that too has been going around since the beginning also about how they are gonna fix this or that. As I said I'll believe it when NORB says it HERE. [:-]

http://www.norbsoftdev.net/forum/96-dis ... ther#68611

Of course, if Norb himself disapproves, I'm sure you'll post the relevant link.

Lol gunfreak is a USER and MITRA is a moderator/tester (loot at his tag and read) not designer or developer. Try again. MITRA doesn't even speak good engrish to understand him.

The closest thing to a designer developer over there talking about this is RebBugler. This is what he says:

RebBugler

NOW ONLINE
NSD Designer

Posts: 2597

Hey D, glad you're helping out here. If you haven't, add drawtiles=0 to your sowwl.ini file to observe the tiles. For folks interested, some other debug lines:

[debug]
alphaomega=0
drawtiles=0
dbglvl=2
benchmark=0
showfortmen=0
mplog=1
noai=0

Regarding the tiles, yes, they are the key component to pathing, both for GB and WL. They are responsible for keeping troops from overlapping and crossing over one another. However, as this thread and screenshots point out they are not perfect. If you turn on (drawtiles=1) tiling you can see the following:

1) when engagements happen tiles turn on and create a firing zone, however, tiles only block flags from crossing these firing fronts, so units in line marching parallel to a unit engaged will have their flank extended into the fire zone. IOW, flag is obeying tiles, but exposed flank isn't.

2) tiles turn on for movement thus preventing collisions between moving units

At this point in time I prefer to not state my preferences or make promises. Just trying to lay out the facts as I see them, provide some tools so folks can have a deeper look, and let everyone form their own opinions on how to better the game.

And lobby you may do...have at it.

See the underlined quote? I rest my case. [:D] When Norb jumps in there and says/promises things will be changed then I will believe.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
There will be patches yes to improve things but I don't for one minute expect that wheeling and marching through units to cease with this engine. He's not going to recode everything for a few malcontents.

I hope you don't think you're doing the game or the developers any favors with your ridiculous comments? Instead of buying the game "later" now I'm thinking "never". I doubt I'm the only "malcontent".

[:'(] you think "I" care if you buy the game. I wouldn't want to see your whiny whine in a multiplayer game. Thank goodness you and hopefully your hater friends here won't buy it. You're probably all griefers anyways and trolls of course.

[pjsynnott]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


[:'(] you think "I" care if you buy the game. I wouldn't want to see your whiny whine in a multiplayer game. Thank goodness you and hopefully your hater friends here won't buy it. You're probably all griefers anyways and trolls of course.

I've already bought it, and I do like it, but in your weird world view that makes me a "hater" too, I guess.

Night, night Taylor. You're not worth engaging with.

[RCHarmon]

Gentlemen,

Lets return to some civility. Lets let Norb and his team answer the questions and us who are supporters of the game not get into confrontations.

SOW Gettysburg has some tracking/ crowding issues. There are ways to work with it like giving a division or corp enough room to maneuver and operate. Not broken, but an affect of having thousands of troops in a small area. It's not just click "form" click "advance" click "charge". There is more to this game.

I'll admit that Waterloo is worse than Gettysburg in bunching up etc. I think there will be some simple changes that will make this better. I think you should make your suggestions known and see what can be done. I'm sure it will improve. And no matter what, if you don't give a unit enough room to operate then yes there will be problems.

[Aurelian]

Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Well, I'm convinced. To not buy it. Thanks aaatoysandmore.

Yup, me too. And I'll tell all of my griefer and troll friends not to buy it either...

[KenchiSulla]

I thought this fanboy / hater routine was for other forums?

[roy64]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

This is WAR gentlemen. [:D] Mess with one of my favorite games and you've got yourselves a BIG one. [:D]

Actually you can gripe all you want. It's been griped about before and as you see it's been around a long time and still exists and is still a GREAT game.

All I can say is what I've been told when I didn't like a game or something.....if you don't like it don't play it or buy it. Nothing's going to get changed as if it were it would have been changed a long time ago. After this long I don't expect any changes in this model of the engine. Now perhaps in a NEW version (like when he does ancients) he can fix it if he feels like it. [:'(]

This is exactly what I mean, it's just not needed.

This might become a great game in the future but at the moment it's broken. Until some of the problems are fixed I will not be playing it, instead I'll be going back to Scourge of War Gettysburg.

[RebBugler]

Well, wondering how this would play out. It was just too volatile to step in. Thought our supporters could see it through without an NSD rep weighing in, unfortunately the cons seemed to have prevailed, er, con meaning against purchase, don't want to misconstrue.

Sure, the game's not perfect, but we listen, and we're at version 1.0 with a whole new ballgame, called Waterloo. You don't think we'll take heed, and shore up some of the issues discussed here? We'd be foolish not to, at least for sure I'll let them be known. No guarantees anything discussed here can or will be addressed, but I'll put forth an effort and submit said issues for consideration. I don't code, I design within the established file system and report what I deem necessary for good gameplay and functioning.

The gentleman that berated NSD games of the past and continues to do so I believe to be unfair with the facts. Yes, the original MadMinute games had no pathing rules set in place, units would go anywhere and everywhere, without Take Command it was quite out of control. But Take Command worked, and NSD accumulated their fan base. With GB pathing was introduced, still not perfect, but based on pathing tiles it improved crowding and overlapping considerably. Now, with WL Norb has developed a new technique where troops march in place to avoid collisions, this works pretty well and along with more advanced tiling techniques the game has come a long way, but still not perfect.

As far as the infamous 'Conga' line, I see it maybe once a half hour, if at all. We've tried to flush it out but it persists, mainly for con fodder as it doesn't offend most folks, but does make the formation act crazy, for three seconds or so.

Guess I've said my piece. We've worked hard to release a solid, entertaining game representing the greatest battle of the Nap era. Whether you make the leap to join us on our quest to make it better is up to you, as the game will be molded by our community through feedback and mods, as have all NSD productions, past, present, and future.

Thanks for reading, and hopefully understanding, if ya got this far,

Randy Keen

[pjsynnott]

@ Aurelian and 76mm, I think you'd be missing out by not getting it. The occasional formation oddities are only one aspect of the game. I'm discovering that there's a lot of depth in it. more that was hoping for, even.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: psynnott
@ Aurelian and 76mm, I think you'd be missing out by not getting it. The occasional formation oddities are only one aspect of the game. I'm discovering that there's a lot of depth in it. more that was hoping for, even.

Thanks. I was hoping for more intelligent discussion and less fanboi ranting on these issues, but c'est la vie (or c'est la guerre?). I was very much let down by Histwar and other recent games, so at this point I don't buy anything until I am pretty confident that a game is for me.

[JamesLxx]

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

You don't think we'll take heed, and shore up some of the issues discussed here? We'd be foolish not to, at least for sure I'll let them be know. No guarantees anything discussed here can or will be addressed, but I'll put forth an effort and submit said issues for consideration.

Thank you RebBugler.

That was the aim of my original post that started this thread entitled "Some practical suggestions to prevent unrealistic ai formation behaviour."

Case closed.

[pjsynnott]

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I was very much let down by Histwar and other recent games, so at this point I don't buy anything until I am pretty confident that a game is for me.

After Histwar, I can completely understand your caution, but in my opinion at least, SOWWL is much better.