A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
I don't think you can give Budyonny an army under version 8 because he's a marshal. You can't assign a GA or MAR to an army. Same would apply to those people in step 2.
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
Nice spoiling move by that tank corps, Loki! Most likely one dead corps, but you can spare one, and it'll be interesting to see how much it disrupts the fascists [:)]
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Gabriel B.
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I don't think you can give Budyonny an army under version 8 because he's a marshal. You can't assign a GA or MAR to an army. Same would apply to those people in step 2.
Meretkov is already leading the 7 independent army (you can leave him there), tyuleneev is in charge of moskow md (same ).
I forgot pavlov, but in most cases it gets executed and replaced by zhukov or timoshenko
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: MishaTX
Nice spoiling move by that tank corps, Loki! Most likely one dead corps, but you can spare one, and it'll be interesting to see how much it disrupts the fascists [:)]
well I deliberately bombed the airbases before launching the attack, so netted about 50 planes destroyed plus 5 or 6 HQs displaced. I think because the early tank corps are low on cv a lot of German players forget how easy it is to get 50 mp for them ... even with low morale/experience they can move much deeper into an exposed flank than anything else the Soviets have.
Up to a point, they are expendable, I have about 60 tank brigades and some I'll probably end up scrapping. Vigabrand has had to concentrate, I reckon the north Ukraine has the equivalent of 3 Pzr Armies and 3 normal armies, the more I can make him disperse that powerful fist, the quicker it will run out of steam. So I'm jabbing at his lines all over the place, not looking for anything decisive but trying to make him break down his core force. So far he's ignoring me [:@], but I'll keep on trying to raise the price of such a degree of concentration
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I don't think you can give Budyonny an army under version 8 because he's a marshal. You can't assign a GA or MAR to an army. Same would apply to those people in step 2.
Meretkov is already leading the 7 independent army (you can leave him there), tyuleneev is in charge of moskow md (same ).
I forgot pavlov, but in most cases it gets executed and replaced by zhukov or timoshenko
I think the game database overrates Meretkov, but the result is he is a pretty good early war (up to the end of 1942) Front Commander. I think between his low political rating and Morvael's new secret NKVD car and plane repair squads, Pavlov has no chance.
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I don't think you can give Budyonny an army under version 8 because he's a marshal. You can't assign a GA or MAR to an army. Same would apply to those people in step 2.
even if Budenny can't get an army, you usually have 2 MDs that are really just for holding brigades/divisions with no army structure. I use Volga and Moscow MDs for some armies on quieter sectors (I think its a bit gamey to have much reporting to Stavka) and in most games, one of those is not that active. Even so, the whole idea is it is an army holding a sector that might become critical or you'll allocate to a combat front when the CP limits increase, so does no harm to give to Budenny.
oddly, one of the many delights of AGEOD's Revolution under Siege is that you get to meet this bunch in their prime. Their Budenny is a dashing young cavalry commander (with an impressive moustache) who you wouldn't trust to defend a hen house but give him a mobile formation and he'll take back half the Ukraine in a single turn. Kulik is still pretty useless even in 1919.
Turn 55: 2-8 July 1942
Turn 55: 2-8 July 1942
In July, the contrasting dynamics on the battlefield were reflecting in the fortunes of the Kalinin and the renamed Stalingrad Fronts. The former was showered with combat decorations for its defence of Smolensk.
[1]
The latter faced a disaster on the scale of 1941. Almost all of two armies (12 and 61) were cut off and a total of 300,000 men were encircled as the Soviets paid the price for not falling back in the previous week.
Smolensk
On the Smolensk-Bryansk-Kursk sector, it appeared as if the Germans had gone over to the defensive. Soviet reconnaissance flights detected what appeared to be 3 Panzer Corps in reserve. One was presumed to be the 39 Panzer which had been pulled back at Smolensk. Two were deployed to the south of Bryansk, possibly to help out any German offensive towards Kursk, more likely to stall any further attacks by the Volkhov Front.
At Smolensk, Stavka authorised a limited offensive designed to take advantage of the lack of German reserves. Elements of their 50 and 59 Corps were battered as the Soviets not only regained ground near the city but turned the flanks of the German defensive line.
(Katyusha's supporting 32 Army)
To the south, elements of both Volkhov and Western Fronts struck at isolated German positions.
Ukraine
Here, the sustained fighting between the Vorskla river and Kharkov finally turned decisively against the Soviets. With the equivalent of 3 Armies now cut off, Stavka allowed a limited retreat but first had to extract formations trapped by the German advance. Elements of Crimean Front were ordered to disrupt the southern flank of the German encirclement and inflicted a series of heavy defeats on 14 Panzer Corps.
[2]
This counter stroke allowed elements of Southern Front to fall back in good order and take up defensive positions south of Kharkov protecting the Dombas industrial region. To the south, Stavka ordered Trans-Caucasus Front to fall back as its northern flank was now exposed. For the moment, the Soviets shifted tactics from a sustained defence to trying to draw the Germans forward in the hope they would have to start weakening their offensive force in the northern Ukraine.
In the Crimea, elements of 39 Army hastily secured Kerch and launched a local counterattack driving back the Romanian troops. At Sevastopol, Stavka rushed in fresh units despite the sustained German air raids. Given the relative weakness of the axis troops in the region, as at Smolensk, the scope now existed to regain ground and force the Germans to divert formations in order to shore up their defences.
[3]
OOB
For a change, here is the army OOB:
Organised by Front. Note that most fronts now have 5 combat armies but some only have 4 as I decide how much of my reserve will be needed to replace losses and how much will produce new rifle divisions for fresh formations. No front is more than 9 command points over its capacity and this will ease in 1943 as more corps are formed and the capacity increases again in April 1943.
Of the Stavka armies only 4 Shock is operational, I'll keep one of the tank armies back and that pair can operate as a genuine strategic reserve. Rest of the tank armies will go to Voronezh Front. I'm keeping 48 army as an empty shell at the moment, once its clear how much of my strategic reserve I'll have left I'll fill it out with new rifle divisions (also do this with the other armies with some command slots), but for the moment, prefer to retain some flexibility.
The 3 Armies linked to the Volga Front are covering quiet sectors and most have spare command capacity. Again I'll decide what to do once the summer battles are over but I suspect 2 of them will be allocated to the Voronezh Front.
12 and 26 Armies look incredibly strong, reason is that I have 'replaced' the divisions they have pocketed as part of rebuilding my defences around Kharkov. 61 Army is going to be a shell formation once the pockets are destroyed.
Not much to say about this. 4 BAK is supporting the operations of the Stavka reserve, rest are assigned to a single front. Most have 5-6 bases and around 500 planes.
Overall losses remained high. The Germans lost 30,000 men (10,000 killed), 170 tanks and 185 planes. Soviet losses were 195,000 men (22,000 killed, 130,000 prisoners), 300 tanks (mostly T-60 and T-70) and 500 planes.
[1] Partly due to the loss of a few Gds divisions in the south, mainly due to the July cap. This is handy as in winter a lot of the better Siberian divisions failed to make it to Gds as the Germans fell back from Kalinin and Western Fronts. So they were starting to slip into the situation of losing morale but retaining high experience levels. This should protect their morale.
[2] That was annoying, I forget to fill in a German controlled hex to the south of the initial attack so the Germans retreated there, effectively trapping 3 Gds Cavalry Corps. While the second victory did a lot of damage it also cost me a lot of movement points, so some units are exposed if the next target is Stalino.
[3] My hope is the losses in six weeks of constant combat means at least some of the Pzr formations are exhausted and unable to renew the main offensive for a couple of turns.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacha had rejoined his squadron (285 ShAP) and was involved in the bitter battles west of Kharkov. The pilots were exhausted by constantly having to both help our units fend off the Germans and support counter-attacks. Despite this, morale was high.
(Il-2s in action near Kharkov)
Vladimir was still serving with Malinovsky's 40 Army. They controlled the bulk of the mobile forces available to Bryansk Front so were constantly redeploying to deal with the German offensive. As part of the overall retreat on the Kharkov-Kursk sector they were briefly in reserve, but, of course, 2 Tank Corps was cut off deep behind the German lines. The inevitable price of the successful raid in the previous week.
In July, the contrasting dynamics on the battlefield were reflecting in the fortunes of the Kalinin and the renamed Stalingrad Fronts. The former was showered with combat decorations for its defence of Smolensk.
[1]
The latter faced a disaster on the scale of 1941. Almost all of two armies (12 and 61) were cut off and a total of 300,000 men were encircled as the Soviets paid the price for not falling back in the previous week.
Smolensk
On the Smolensk-Bryansk-Kursk sector, it appeared as if the Germans had gone over to the defensive. Soviet reconnaissance flights detected what appeared to be 3 Panzer Corps in reserve. One was presumed to be the 39 Panzer which had been pulled back at Smolensk. Two were deployed to the south of Bryansk, possibly to help out any German offensive towards Kursk, more likely to stall any further attacks by the Volkhov Front.
At Smolensk, Stavka authorised a limited offensive designed to take advantage of the lack of German reserves. Elements of their 50 and 59 Corps were battered as the Soviets not only regained ground near the city but turned the flanks of the German defensive line.
(Katyusha's supporting 32 Army)
To the south, elements of both Volkhov and Western Fronts struck at isolated German positions.
Ukraine
Here, the sustained fighting between the Vorskla river and Kharkov finally turned decisively against the Soviets. With the equivalent of 3 Armies now cut off, Stavka allowed a limited retreat but first had to extract formations trapped by the German advance. Elements of Crimean Front were ordered to disrupt the southern flank of the German encirclement and inflicted a series of heavy defeats on 14 Panzer Corps.
[2]
This counter stroke allowed elements of Southern Front to fall back in good order and take up defensive positions south of Kharkov protecting the Dombas industrial region. To the south, Stavka ordered Trans-Caucasus Front to fall back as its northern flank was now exposed. For the moment, the Soviets shifted tactics from a sustained defence to trying to draw the Germans forward in the hope they would have to start weakening their offensive force in the northern Ukraine.
In the Crimea, elements of 39 Army hastily secured Kerch and launched a local counterattack driving back the Romanian troops. At Sevastopol, Stavka rushed in fresh units despite the sustained German air raids. Given the relative weakness of the axis troops in the region, as at Smolensk, the scope now existed to regain ground and force the Germans to divert formations in order to shore up their defences.
[3]
OOB
For a change, here is the army OOB:
Organised by Front. Note that most fronts now have 5 combat armies but some only have 4 as I decide how much of my reserve will be needed to replace losses and how much will produce new rifle divisions for fresh formations. No front is more than 9 command points over its capacity and this will ease in 1943 as more corps are formed and the capacity increases again in April 1943.
Of the Stavka armies only 4 Shock is operational, I'll keep one of the tank armies back and that pair can operate as a genuine strategic reserve. Rest of the tank armies will go to Voronezh Front. I'm keeping 48 army as an empty shell at the moment, once its clear how much of my strategic reserve I'll have left I'll fill it out with new rifle divisions (also do this with the other armies with some command slots), but for the moment, prefer to retain some flexibility.
The 3 Armies linked to the Volga Front are covering quiet sectors and most have spare command capacity. Again I'll decide what to do once the summer battles are over but I suspect 2 of them will be allocated to the Voronezh Front.
12 and 26 Armies look incredibly strong, reason is that I have 'replaced' the divisions they have pocketed as part of rebuilding my defences around Kharkov. 61 Army is going to be a shell formation once the pockets are destroyed.
Not much to say about this. 4 BAK is supporting the operations of the Stavka reserve, rest are assigned to a single front. Most have 5-6 bases and around 500 planes.
Overall losses remained high. The Germans lost 30,000 men (10,000 killed), 170 tanks and 185 planes. Soviet losses were 195,000 men (22,000 killed, 130,000 prisoners), 300 tanks (mostly T-60 and T-70) and 500 planes.
[1] Partly due to the loss of a few Gds divisions in the south, mainly due to the July cap. This is handy as in winter a lot of the better Siberian divisions failed to make it to Gds as the Germans fell back from Kalinin and Western Fronts. So they were starting to slip into the situation of losing morale but retaining high experience levels. This should protect their morale.
[2] That was annoying, I forget to fill in a German controlled hex to the south of the initial attack so the Germans retreated there, effectively trapping 3 Gds Cavalry Corps. While the second victory did a lot of damage it also cost me a lot of movement points, so some units are exposed if the next target is Stalino.
[3] My hope is the losses in six weeks of constant combat means at least some of the Pzr formations are exhausted and unable to renew the main offensive for a couple of turns.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacha had rejoined his squadron (285 ShAP) and was involved in the bitter battles west of Kharkov. The pilots were exhausted by constantly having to both help our units fend off the Germans and support counter-attacks. Despite this, morale was high.
(Il-2s in action near Kharkov)
Vladimir was still serving with Malinovsky's 40 Army. They controlled the bulk of the mobile forces available to Bryansk Front so were constantly redeploying to deal with the German offensive. As part of the overall retreat on the Kharkov-Kursk sector they were briefly in reserve, but, of course, 2 Tank Corps was cut off deep behind the German lines. The inevitable price of the successful raid in the previous week.
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Gabriel B.
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I don't think you can give Budyonny an army under version 8 because he's a marshal. You can't assign a GA or MAR to an army. Same would apply to those people in step 2.
Meretkov is already leading the 7 independent army (you can leave him there), tyuleneev is in charge of moskow md (same ).
I forgot pavlov, but in most cases it gets executed and replaced by zhukov or timoshenko
I think the game database overrates Meretkov, but the result is he is a pretty good early war (up to the end of 1942) Front Commander. I think between his low political rating and Morvael's new secret NKVD car and plane repair squads, Pavlov has no chance.
as of AUG 1942 -
Leningrad-Govorov
Nordwest -Eremenko
volkov-Golikov
Kalinin-Timoshenko
Western-Shaposnikov
Bryansk-Vasilevsky
Voronej-Vatutin
SW-Malinovski
SE-Tolbuhin
crimea-konev
TC-Zakarov
Bagramian and Rokosovski do not have yet the proper rank to command a front.
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Gabriel B.
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
WRT to orbat , i think you raised tank armies too soon .
The first 4 tank armies were mixed formations 2 tank corps some infantry+ cavalry div .
3rd tank (from 58TH CAA )reorganised 1943 as 57th CAA
5th tank reorganised 1943 as 12th CAA
1st tank (from 38TH CAA )disbanded and reorganised from 29th CAA.
4TH tank (from 28th CAA) reorganised 1942 as 65th CAA.
This efect is dificult to recreate in the game , I use regular CAA (for historical flavor 58th, 38th, 28th ) with 4 infantry divisions and a cavalry div (10 cp)
and atach them one air HQ (2 tank crps-8cp ).
In 1943 when real tank armies are build ,the air HQ is detached and 2 rifle corps
are added.
The first 4 tank armies were mixed formations 2 tank corps some infantry+ cavalry div .
3rd tank (from 58TH CAA )reorganised 1943 as 57th CAA
5th tank reorganised 1943 as 12th CAA
1st tank (from 38TH CAA )disbanded and reorganised from 29th CAA.
4TH tank (from 28th CAA) reorganised 1942 as 65th CAA.
This efect is dificult to recreate in the game , I use regular CAA (for historical flavor 58th, 38th, 28th ) with 4 infantry divisions and a cavalry div (10 cp)
and atach them one air HQ (2 tank crps-8cp ).
In 1943 when real tank armies are build ,the air HQ is detached and 2 rifle corps
are added.
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.
WRT to orbat , i think you raised tank armies too soon .
The first 4 tank armies were mixed formations 2 tank corps some infantry+ cavalry div .
3rd tank (from 58TH CAA )reorganised 1943 as 57th CAA
5th tank reorganised 1943 as 12th CAA
1st tank (from 38TH CAA )disbanded and reorganised from 29th CAA.
4TH tank (from 28th CAA) reorganised 1942 as 65th CAA.
This efect is dificult to recreate in the game , I use regular CAA (for historical flavor 58th, 38th, 28th ) with 4 infantry divisions and a cavalry div (10 cp)
and atach them one air HQ (2 tank crps-8cp ).
In 1943 when real tank armies are build ,the air HQ is detached and 2 rifle corps
are added.
in Sept 42 the 4 Tank Army had a standing joke ... that the army designation was in reality a comment on the number of tanks they had and all those were guarding the Army HQ.
agree, that the first iteration of the tank armies was the same as the combined arms army and they only took on a structured form in 1943. But it makes sense to raise them as I'll develop them, what I do is once I have mech corps I move to the permanent structure (1 Mech/2 Tank Corps) so those 4 Tank Armies are the basis for the 6 that I'll use in 1943 and most of 1944.
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
Really enjoying the AAR and learning some interesting facts. I admit I'm rooting for the Axis as want to see Loki under some serious pressure. I think he may need a case of fortified wine from my local Abbey sent to him before the next turn to reflect more realistic Soviet generalship.
(Apologies in advance for stereotyping but saw the Glasgow location).
PS after that insult I'm almost embarrassed to ask for more more photos.
Keep up the good work chaps!
(Apologies in advance for stereotyping but saw the Glasgow location).
PS after that insult I'm almost embarrassed to ask for more more photos.
Keep up the good work chaps!
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
Fascinating back and forth in this campaign. I have to agree with Sorta, I too can't help but root for the Germans in this summer, if only because it will make your come-back in the winter all the more glorious (you are going to make a comeback and encircle a massive amount of German divisions, right?). Of course long term I'm cheerleading for our brave Soviet comrades, but right now we need a successful German offensive for the sake of the story!
RE: Turn 54: 25 June – 1 July 1942
ORIGINAL: Sorta
Really enjoying the AAR and learning some interesting facts. I admit I'm rooting for the Axis as want to see Loki under some serious pressure. I think he may need a case of fortified wine from my local Abbey sent to him before the next turn to reflect more realistic Soviet generalship.
(Apologies in advance for stereotyping but saw the Glasgow location).
PS after that insult I'm almost embarrassed to ask for more more photos.
Keep up the good work chaps!
ORIGINAL: Matnjord
Fascinating back and forth in this campaign. I have to agree with Sorta, I too can't help but root for the Germans in this summer, if only because it will make your come-back in the winter all the more glorious (you are going to make a comeback and encircle a massive amount of German divisions, right?). Of course long term I'm cheerleading for our brave Soviet comrades, but right now we need a successful German offensive for the sake of the story!
cheers chums [;)]
but yes I know what you mean, a good game needs a powerful German 1942 offensive. Play has slowed a wee bit (holidays and things), but now that vigabrand has a Panzer Ball set up, I'm starting to feel the pressure. Just been partially rescued by a major rain storm in the Ukraine ....
aye the linkage between Buckfast Wine and social disorder is well known in Glasgow .. personally I can't stand the stuff but then I also refuse to drink Irn Bru
Turns 56-57: 9-22 July 1942
Turns 56-57: 9-22 July 1942
The first week saw a sequence of thunderstorms hit the Ukraine and western Russia and effectively end almost all military movements apart from small scale clashes around the Sea of Azov [1].
During the lull, Stavka kept itself busy sending out promotion letters and sacking perfectly competent commanders [2]
By the 15th the ground had hardened and the German's renewed their offensive. The main attack was towards the Oskol. To the south, the Germans broke through the weak Soviet rearguard at Kharkov.
(combat positions before any Soviet moves)
In the Crimea, the Germans carried on bombing Sevastopol but for the moment Stavka refused to evacuate the city and also reinforced the defences at Kerch. If both ports could be held, then the task of retaking the region would be much easier.
(Soviet PVO Flak Unit at Sevastopol)
Smolensk
Taking advantage of the lack of German offensive capacity to the north of Smolensk, Stavka ordered a major re-organisation of the Front and Army boundaries on this sector.
In turn, this freed additional formations that were redeployed to the escalating Smolensk battles.
Vasilevsky's elite 22 Army made steady progress along the southern bank of the Dvina first disrupting the main defensive line of 59 Corps and then overrunning the Corps HQ.
(mortar team supporting 22 Army)
At Smolensk itself, elements of Kalinin Front launched a massive attack but were held by the well dug in 50 corps.
However, 54 Army then took advantage of the gaps torn in the German defensive line and outflanked the German troops to the north of Smolensk.
Ukraine
Given the ongoing German offensive in the north, the bulk of the Soviet forces in the Ukraine fell back to new defensive positions. For the moment, Stavka was prepared to trade space for time and hope that the Germans became over-extended. Sooner or later, the Panzers would either push too far east, leaving their flanks vulnerable or have to swing north or south.
For the moment, the Oskol river was effectively the front line as Soviet forces re-organised after the defeat at Kharkov.
Stalingrad Front was falling apart under the pressure and was having to replace its losses with formations drawn from the strategic reserve. However, to the south Southern Front remained a powerful grouping and Crimean Front possessed substantial mobile and armoured formations. To the north, elements of Bryansk, Western and Voronezh Fronts presented a major obstacle to the Germans, with increasing numbers of armoured formations being added to their strength.
OOB
Over the two weeks, the Germans lost 47,000 men (12,000 killed), 145 tanks and 90 planes. Soviet losses were 400,000 men (40,000 killed, 300,000 prisoners), 190 tanks and 400 planes (incl 100 lost U2s).
[1] Since we have already had mud in the south, that is the end of any help from the weather apart from in the north zone. … another 10 weeks of slowly dropping morale to cope with
[2] This means that the two fronts defending the Voronezh sector are now led by absolute idiots.
The first week saw a sequence of thunderstorms hit the Ukraine and western Russia and effectively end almost all military movements apart from small scale clashes around the Sea of Azov [1].
During the lull, Stavka kept itself busy sending out promotion letters and sacking perfectly competent commanders [2]
By the 15th the ground had hardened and the German's renewed their offensive. The main attack was towards the Oskol. To the south, the Germans broke through the weak Soviet rearguard at Kharkov.
(combat positions before any Soviet moves)
In the Crimea, the Germans carried on bombing Sevastopol but for the moment Stavka refused to evacuate the city and also reinforced the defences at Kerch. If both ports could be held, then the task of retaking the region would be much easier.
(Soviet PVO Flak Unit at Sevastopol)
Smolensk
Taking advantage of the lack of German offensive capacity to the north of Smolensk, Stavka ordered a major re-organisation of the Front and Army boundaries on this sector.
In turn, this freed additional formations that were redeployed to the escalating Smolensk battles.
Vasilevsky's elite 22 Army made steady progress along the southern bank of the Dvina first disrupting the main defensive line of 59 Corps and then overrunning the Corps HQ.
(mortar team supporting 22 Army)
At Smolensk itself, elements of Kalinin Front launched a massive attack but were held by the well dug in 50 corps.
However, 54 Army then took advantage of the gaps torn in the German defensive line and outflanked the German troops to the north of Smolensk.
Ukraine
Given the ongoing German offensive in the north, the bulk of the Soviet forces in the Ukraine fell back to new defensive positions. For the moment, Stavka was prepared to trade space for time and hope that the Germans became over-extended. Sooner or later, the Panzers would either push too far east, leaving their flanks vulnerable or have to swing north or south.
For the moment, the Oskol river was effectively the front line as Soviet forces re-organised after the defeat at Kharkov.
Stalingrad Front was falling apart under the pressure and was having to replace its losses with formations drawn from the strategic reserve. However, to the south Southern Front remained a powerful grouping and Crimean Front possessed substantial mobile and armoured formations. To the north, elements of Bryansk, Western and Voronezh Fronts presented a major obstacle to the Germans, with increasing numbers of armoured formations being added to their strength.
OOB
Over the two weeks, the Germans lost 47,000 men (12,000 killed), 145 tanks and 90 planes. Soviet losses were 400,000 men (40,000 killed, 300,000 prisoners), 190 tanks and 400 planes (incl 100 lost U2s).
[1] Since we have already had mud in the south, that is the end of any help from the weather apart from in the north zone. … another 10 weeks of slowly dropping morale to cope with
[2] This means that the two fronts defending the Voronezh sector are now led by absolute idiots.
RE: Turns 56-57: 9-22 July 1942
Those casualties sure don't look pretty, but at least you're getting a metric ton of guards. And it's gonna be a long a painful slog to go through those 10 weeks of good weather in Ukraine, it's gonna be interesting to see how far back you get pushed back there. At least it looks like you're pretty safe in the north and on the verge of putting the hurt on those Germans around Smolensk.
How deeply can you draw on you strategic reserve before your frontline strength will start to erode?
How deeply can you draw on you strategic reserve before your frontline strength will start to erode?
RE: Turns 56-57: 9-22 July 1942
ORIGINAL: Matnjord
Those casualties sure don't look pretty, but at least you're getting a metric ton of guards. And it's gonna be a long a painful slog to go through those 10 weeks of good weather in Ukraine, it's gonna be interesting to see how far back you get pushed back there. At least it looks like you're pretty safe in the north and on the verge of putting the hurt on those Germans around Smolensk.
How deeply can you draw on you strategic reserve before your frontline strength will start to erode?
good questions and that is what I've been thinking about for the last couple of turns.
I am down (end of T58) to 76 rifle brigades. Say about 6 of these are naval infantry, so that is the core of 35 more rifle divisions to feed into the slaughter. But I am also using these (and the 41 tank brigades) to hold down reserve defensive lines. I've cannabilised the reserve in a few sectors as I no longer fear a decisive break through (or, as around Stalino, I've fallen back to those lines) ... unless the Germans send armour north the worst that can happen is I get pushed back a few hexes while fighting in poor terrain. But I'm not far off the end of that source of replacements.
My constraint is admin pts, have a decent manpower reserve (132,000), am producing >100,000 manpower per turn and am awash in arms pts. So if I did nothing else with my admin pts I can generate the equivalent of 6 rifle divisions per turn (next set of bonus admin pts is not till late October), I don't need many for new support units but realistically I'm spending 10 or so a turn on re-organisations (and that is before e-Stalin inflicts Kulik on a key command). I also want to stock up some admin pts for when I can start to raise artillery divisions, these are critical for dealing with well dug in defences.
The other bit is I wouldn't be too worried if the army shrunk to nearer 7.7/7.8 million, depends on what I lost to trigger that decline.
I'm swapping strategies, so June-early July I stood and fought (perhaps one turn too many), I'm now trading off space. How I handle August really depends on what Vigabrand does, he'll reach the Don by T59 so that gives him three options:
a) try to cross, well its a major river around Voronezh, I've been digging in since November and even battered, the Stalingrad Front can generate defensive stacks of 18-20 cv, with the bonus for the major river, that is formidable. So my guess is he'll try to screen and swing north or south. Not least even if he does cross, he'll run into the problem of very long flanks, and I'm already beating his Italians et al for sport and Gds [;)];
b) he then needs to either radically pick one direction or split his army. If he keeps the 3 Pzr Armies plus say 2 of the infantry armies together that can munch its way towards Tula (north) or Stalino (south). I can't stop it, merely delay and frustrate. So which ever he wants he'll take. Stalino is a good gain (for the manpower) but runs into the relative dead end of the lower Donets/Don which I think I can cover well enough to delay him into the autumn. Tula-Orel is probably easier (less rivers etc), in theory threatens the south of Moscow, in reality he'd have to cross the Oka which would be a worse prospect than the Don/Donets.
The 'but' here is I now have powerful mobile/armoured forces both to the north and south. Neither can stand toe to toe with the Pzrs but both can damage isolated Pzrs or cut up his infantry. So if he picks one, he'll still have to leave a strong screen or face a repeat of the problems he has around Smolensk.
c) the alternative is to split up his armoured fist, use say 1 Pzr army as a screen and the other 2 to carry on attacking (again its his choice if he goes north or south). This might be strong enough to keep me on the defensive on one side and falling back on the other, but the equivalent of say 6 Pzr Corps as his main threat is going to have problems making and sealing really dangerous pockets.
The worst case for him in this case is his offensive arm becomes snagged up in a cats cradle of sacrificial rifle divisions with Corps and mobile units stabbing at his flanks.
I think early August becomes critical. If he can manage the sort of pocket that eats up more of my few corps (and I really don't want to use too many admin pts on raising more now before 1943, not least I have a number of 5-6 cv gds rifle divisions in any case), then that may allow him to push me back on one direction and succesfully screen the other. If he carries on creating army sized pockets and most of what I lose is replaceable, well that will help him prepare for the winter of 1942-3 but is not a mortal threat.
All this is one reason for my actions around Smolensk. At the moment, I don't really need those units to shore up say a defense of Tula. If I can force him to draw off another Pzr Corps to pin me, thats a weakening to his main attack. Equally if I can force him to deploy a couple of infantry corps to face Kalinin and Voronezh Fronts that is again a weakening of his main attack (at the moment he is using hedgehogs but they only work if backed by a mobile reserve).
its all rather interesting at the moment [:)]
Turn 58: 23-29 July 1943
Turn 58: 23-29 July 1943
The pattern of fighting in recent weeks continued. Around Smolensk, the Soviets tried to take advantage of the lack of a German operational reserve. In the northern Ukraine, the German offensive continued, inflicting heavy losses on Stalingrad Front and pushing over the Oskol.
Smolensk
Here, the Germans took the bait that had been laid the previous week. They committed their only mobile reserve (37 Panzer) to drive back 54 Army. With all their reserves now engaged, 24 Army launched a massive attack, led by waves of Sturmoviks, and drove the Germans back at Smolensk.
At the same time 22 Army carried on its offensive along the Dvina, inflicting heavy losses on 59 Corps.
In a follow up attack, the second wave almost reached the rail junction at Rudnya.
With the Germans fully committed north of the Dnepr, Stavka authorised the second phase of the offensive. Soviet armour drove south along the line of the Sozh almost reaching the rail junction at Krichev. In turn, elements of Kalinin and Volkhov Fronts took advantage of the German hedgehog defences to all but surround 2 infantry divisions at Tytschinino.
Ukraine
The main German attack was aimed at forcing the upper Oskol and saw further heavy losses inflicted on the battered Stalingrad Front.
To the south, the Germans were still caught up on the Soviet rearguards but elements of 3 and 14 Panzer pushed ahead in an attempt to stop the Soviet defensive positions solidifying.
As a result, the mobile formations of the Crimean Front took advantage. Rokossovsky's armour hit the Italians holding 11 Pzr Division's southern flank. Poorly equipped and ill prepared for the ferocity of a Soviet offensive the Italians fell back leaving 11 Panzer exposed.
(Soviet armour preparing for the Slavyansk counter-attack)
In turn elements of 37 Army cut across their line of retreat and then 38 Army hit the now surrounded German armour.
With the Germans thrown back in chaos, the Soviet formations were then able to retreat back behind the main defensive screen.
To the north, 19 Army went over to the offensive and regained the rail junction of Kupyansk, inflicting heavy losses on the LAH SS Motorised division [1].
(La-5 in action near Kupyansk)
OOB
To place these numbers into context, the proportion of Gds rifle divisions by Front is:
Bryansk – 20%
Crimean - 0%
Leningrad – 0%
Kalinin – 50%
North Western – 23%
Southern – 24%
Stalingrad – 11%
Trans-Caucasus – 7%
Volkhov – 10%
Voronezh – 0%
Western – 30%
Losses followed the usual pattern, the Axis lost 31,000 men(9,000 killed), 170 tanks and 122 planes. Soviet losses were 150,000 men (18,000 killed, 90,000 prisoners), 80 tanks and 574 planes.
In the sky, the VVS was increasingly outmatched [2] but managed to ensure that the Red Army was not abandoned to the full power of the Luftwaffe.
Tanks [3]
[1] Not sure why but I am finding the German motorised divisions a relatively easy target. May be that Vigabrand is relying on their relatively high MP and low fuel cost so they are being used as advanced guards?
[2] Problem is this seems to be the worst point for the Soviet fighters. The LaGG-3 and Yak-1 are now badly outclassed (and Mig-3 worse than useless) but you cannot avoid using them. Situation improves with first the La-5 (a decent improvement over the LaGG) and more critically the Yak-9 and the late 1942 lend lease models.
[3] Short comment on my armour numbers. I have masses of tanks in the pools, but at this stage am happy to leave most of armoured units as brigades and keep them weak. I agree with other commentators who see the Cavalry Corps as your best mobile unit at this stage. To me, the value of the mid-42 Tank Corps is its mobility, I'm quite prepared to lose some if I can pull off a deep raid and disrupt German HQ and Airbase units.
Oddly by mid-43 the Soviet tanks are badly outclassed but the Tank Corps has a much better ToE (and hopefully has built up experience), so it becomes a much more valuable formation. I suspect I'll end up scrapping a number of the tank brigades I still have but for the moment they are good for creating reserve lines.
The pattern of fighting in recent weeks continued. Around Smolensk, the Soviets tried to take advantage of the lack of a German operational reserve. In the northern Ukraine, the German offensive continued, inflicting heavy losses on Stalingrad Front and pushing over the Oskol.
Smolensk
Here, the Germans took the bait that had been laid the previous week. They committed their only mobile reserve (37 Panzer) to drive back 54 Army. With all their reserves now engaged, 24 Army launched a massive attack, led by waves of Sturmoviks, and drove the Germans back at Smolensk.
At the same time 22 Army carried on its offensive along the Dvina, inflicting heavy losses on 59 Corps.
In a follow up attack, the second wave almost reached the rail junction at Rudnya.
With the Germans fully committed north of the Dnepr, Stavka authorised the second phase of the offensive. Soviet armour drove south along the line of the Sozh almost reaching the rail junction at Krichev. In turn, elements of Kalinin and Volkhov Fronts took advantage of the German hedgehog defences to all but surround 2 infantry divisions at Tytschinino.
Ukraine
The main German attack was aimed at forcing the upper Oskol and saw further heavy losses inflicted on the battered Stalingrad Front.
To the south, the Germans were still caught up on the Soviet rearguards but elements of 3 and 14 Panzer pushed ahead in an attempt to stop the Soviet defensive positions solidifying.
As a result, the mobile formations of the Crimean Front took advantage. Rokossovsky's armour hit the Italians holding 11 Pzr Division's southern flank. Poorly equipped and ill prepared for the ferocity of a Soviet offensive the Italians fell back leaving 11 Panzer exposed.
(Soviet armour preparing for the Slavyansk counter-attack)
In turn elements of 37 Army cut across their line of retreat and then 38 Army hit the now surrounded German armour.
With the Germans thrown back in chaos, the Soviet formations were then able to retreat back behind the main defensive screen.
To the north, 19 Army went over to the offensive and regained the rail junction of Kupyansk, inflicting heavy losses on the LAH SS Motorised division [1].
(La-5 in action near Kupyansk)
OOB
To place these numbers into context, the proportion of Gds rifle divisions by Front is:
Bryansk – 20%
Crimean - 0%
Leningrad – 0%
Kalinin – 50%
North Western – 23%
Southern – 24%
Stalingrad – 11%
Trans-Caucasus – 7%
Volkhov – 10%
Voronezh – 0%
Western – 30%
Losses followed the usual pattern, the Axis lost 31,000 men(9,000 killed), 170 tanks and 122 planes. Soviet losses were 150,000 men (18,000 killed, 90,000 prisoners), 80 tanks and 574 planes.
In the sky, the VVS was increasingly outmatched [2] but managed to ensure that the Red Army was not abandoned to the full power of the Luftwaffe.
Tanks [3]
[1] Not sure why but I am finding the German motorised divisions a relatively easy target. May be that Vigabrand is relying on their relatively high MP and low fuel cost so they are being used as advanced guards?
[2] Problem is this seems to be the worst point for the Soviet fighters. The LaGG-3 and Yak-1 are now badly outclassed (and Mig-3 worse than useless) but you cannot avoid using them. Situation improves with first the La-5 (a decent improvement over the LaGG) and more critically the Yak-9 and the late 1942 lend lease models.
[3] Short comment on my armour numbers. I have masses of tanks in the pools, but at this stage am happy to leave most of armoured units as brigades and keep them weak. I agree with other commentators who see the Cavalry Corps as your best mobile unit at this stage. To me, the value of the mid-42 Tank Corps is its mobility, I'm quite prepared to lose some if I can pull off a deep raid and disrupt German HQ and Airbase units.
Oddly by mid-43 the Soviet tanks are badly outclassed but the Tank Corps has a much better ToE (and hopefully has built up experience), so it becomes a much more valuable formation. I suspect I'll end up scrapping a number of the tank brigades I still have but for the moment they are good for creating reserve lines.
Turn 59: 30 July – 6 August 1942
Turn 59: 30 July – 6 August 1942
After two months of sustained fighting, the tide of war finally shifted in favour of the Germans. Under severe pressure both Stalingrad and Southern Fronts started to fall apart as their main offensive swung south, presumably aiming to capture the Donets region.
(Southern Front retreating in the Northern Ukraine)
In a way, more welcome, the Soviet gains around Smolensk forced the Germans to respond in force. While this ended the scope for further gains it also drew off the forces they were massing for an offensive at Kursk.
Equally the campaign of small gains and minor offensives north of Lake Ladoga shifted into a major Finnish offensive designed to destroy 7 Army.
Under pressure, Stavka opted for only limited counter blows and to adopt delaying tactics. North of the Sosna, Soviet intelligence indicated that critical German supply lines were only weakly defended. 34 Army swept aside a Hungarian armoured division and opened the way to a massive Soviet tank attack.
The baptism of the new tank armies was a success as an SS Motorised division was overwhelmed and two German Hqs were displaced [1]
(Elements of 2 Tank Army moving up to the front)
Around Kursk, elements of Western Front tried to take advantage of the removal of the German reserves, but these probing attacks had mixed success.
[2]
In the north, 7 Army failed to overrun the Finnish tank division but inflicted heavy losses in any case, as Soviet units also managed to slip out of the weakly held pocket.
[3]
At Smolensk, the Soviets went over to the defensive. Stavka was content that the recent attacks had forced the redeployment of another Panzer and at least 2 infantry corps in an attempt to prevent any further gains.
OOB and Losses
From the start of the German summer offensive both sides had suffered heavy losses. The axis had lost 82,000 men dead (and 160,000 wounded), 1,900 tanks and 900 planes. Soviet losses were 160,000 dead, 700,000 prisoners (and 350,000 wounded), 1,400 tanks and 3,300 planes.
Among these overall numbers the Germans had lost 500 Pzr III and 200 Pzr IV, 5,000 rifle squads 1650 mot squads. The Finns have lost 110 infantry squads.
From their airforce they have lost 220 Bf-109, 90 Ju-87 and 125 Ju-88.
The Soviets have lost 300 T-34s, 900 T-60/70s and 40,000 rifle squads. In addition, have lost 680 Yak-1/7B, 700 LaGG-3, 700 Il-2, 200 Pe-2, 150 Hurricanes and 200 P-40s.
[1] Yep, used 3 tank armies and 9 tank corps. Hope that by displacing some Pzr Corps Hqs and sacrificing a rifle division to impede resupply I should slow at least some of the Panzers on this sector.
[2] Second attack shows a regular problem – poor information as to the real defensive cv, that stack ended up having double the strength that was being shown on map
[3] This was a gamble but the target was an armoured formation deployed in a swamp. Most of the destroyed tanks were stolen Soviet T-26s etc. More importantly, I'd suspect those losses are the equivalent of 2-3 weeks worth of Finnish replacement manpower.
After two months of sustained fighting, the tide of war finally shifted in favour of the Germans. Under severe pressure both Stalingrad and Southern Fronts started to fall apart as their main offensive swung south, presumably aiming to capture the Donets region.
(Southern Front retreating in the Northern Ukraine)
In a way, more welcome, the Soviet gains around Smolensk forced the Germans to respond in force. While this ended the scope for further gains it also drew off the forces they were massing for an offensive at Kursk.
Equally the campaign of small gains and minor offensives north of Lake Ladoga shifted into a major Finnish offensive designed to destroy 7 Army.
Under pressure, Stavka opted for only limited counter blows and to adopt delaying tactics. North of the Sosna, Soviet intelligence indicated that critical German supply lines were only weakly defended. 34 Army swept aside a Hungarian armoured division and opened the way to a massive Soviet tank attack.
The baptism of the new tank armies was a success as an SS Motorised division was overwhelmed and two German Hqs were displaced [1]
(Elements of 2 Tank Army moving up to the front)
Around Kursk, elements of Western Front tried to take advantage of the removal of the German reserves, but these probing attacks had mixed success.
[2]
In the north, 7 Army failed to overrun the Finnish tank division but inflicted heavy losses in any case, as Soviet units also managed to slip out of the weakly held pocket.
[3]
At Smolensk, the Soviets went over to the defensive. Stavka was content that the recent attacks had forced the redeployment of another Panzer and at least 2 infantry corps in an attempt to prevent any further gains.
OOB and Losses
From the start of the German summer offensive both sides had suffered heavy losses. The axis had lost 82,000 men dead (and 160,000 wounded), 1,900 tanks and 900 planes. Soviet losses were 160,000 dead, 700,000 prisoners (and 350,000 wounded), 1,400 tanks and 3,300 planes.
Among these overall numbers the Germans had lost 500 Pzr III and 200 Pzr IV, 5,000 rifle squads 1650 mot squads. The Finns have lost 110 infantry squads.
From their airforce they have lost 220 Bf-109, 90 Ju-87 and 125 Ju-88.
The Soviets have lost 300 T-34s, 900 T-60/70s and 40,000 rifle squads. In addition, have lost 680 Yak-1/7B, 700 LaGG-3, 700 Il-2, 200 Pe-2, 150 Hurricanes and 200 P-40s.
[1] Yep, used 3 tank armies and 9 tank corps. Hope that by displacing some Pzr Corps Hqs and sacrificing a rifle division to impede resupply I should slow at least some of the Panzers on this sector.
[2] Second attack shows a regular problem – poor information as to the real defensive cv, that stack ended up having double the strength that was being shown on map
[3] This was a gamble but the target was an armoured formation deployed in a swamp. Most of the destroyed tanks were stolen Soviet T-26s etc. More importantly, I'd suspect those losses are the equivalent of 2-3 weeks worth of Finnish replacement manpower.
RE: Turn 59: 30 July – 6 August 1942
Some scary losses for sure, but nothing critical in terms of terrain seems to be really threatened. Hold on tight ye Ivan, eStalin has it under control!
And thanks for the detailed answers, they've made this game a lot less scary than it used to be and are slowly pushing me towards shelling out the steep 60£ required for it.
Gotta love how a success means losing 10% of your AFV against an enemy possessing less than 20 times the amount that you have [;)] How many of those AFV would actually be tanks (and T34 in particular) though?
And thanks for the detailed answers, they've made this game a lot less scary than it used to be and are slowly pushing me towards shelling out the steep 60£ required for it.
The baptism of the new tank armies was a success
Gotta love how a success means losing 10% of your AFV against an enemy possessing less than 20 times the amount that you have [;)] How many of those AFV would actually be tanks (and T34 in particular) though?
RE: Turn 59: 30 July – 6 August 1942
ORIGINAL: Matnjord
Some scary losses for sure, but nothing critical in terms of terrain seems to be really threatened. Hold on tight ye Ivan, eStalin has it under control!
And thanks for the detailed answers, they've made this game a lot less scary than it used to be and are slowly pushing me towards shelling out the steep 60£ required for it.
I think Vigabrand needs one more big pocket, if he can repeat what he managed west of Kharkov then I have a serious problem - not so much in outright loss but it'll cripple my riposte in late 42/43. So its that what is really driving my strategy, if I can feed him the equivalent of an army a turn (say 60-80,000 lost) then I should be ok.
Smolensk becomes vital, as we move into the next phase. Taking Pelton's "x hexes to Berlin - y turns of mud" mindset, that is a critical jumping off point.
The game is worth it. I stood on the edge for some time not sure as it is expensive and there is a steep learning curve. To the latter I was lucky to be able to do the various 1941 'road to' scenarios a few times PBEM, including with someone who was learning at the same time. That really helped.
But in terms of £s spent/hours played, this has been ridiculously cheap.
ORIGINAL: MatnjordThe baptism of the new tank armies was a success
Gotta love how a success means losing 10% of your AFV against an enemy possessing less than 20 times the amount that you have [;)] How many of those AFV would actually be tanks (and T34 in particular) though?
Most of the losses are T60/T70s, they are little but mobile death traps, so it does look worse than it is really is. Because I make limited use of armour in 1942, I have stuff rusting in the Urals, so up to a point losses are the least of my problems if I gain experience and morale and can pull back afterwards. Its not till you gain the later 1943 OOBs do you start to shed the light tanks from most combat formations.
That particular operation displaced 2 HQs, one of which was a Pzr Corps so at least one group of the Pzrs on the Sosna-Oskol is not going far next turn.
Fits with my basic mindset that due to the Soviet morale problems at this stage, you are really at war with the German movement points rather than combat values. My logic is they will win almost any attack, so the art is to make sure they can't attack too often or exploit too readily.
RE: Turn 59: 30 July – 6 August 1942
Losing 60 000-80 000 men a turn is okay?!? Adding to the "send them into battle and let them force the Germans to waste a few shells" approach to retiring old military hardware life really is cheap in Soviet Russia [:(]