V1.08.05 Public Beta is Available

[morvael]

Changes to on-going games are usually painful, because they were set up in the long run for different meta. loki100 knows best about it. He just survied entire period of 40 NM, and just left it when 40 NM is gone (and he can expect Germans to be tougher now, but in his own defensive period he was weaker). So he suffered most and got nothing in return. Changing patch during a long game is not advised, unless you can accept such upheaval without grumbling. When played from the start and setting up the army right, cavalry changes would be a non-issue.

Really, there should be just one patch per 2 years for this game, so all could play and finish some games in constant meta. Therefore there will be no big patches after .05 (with WitE2 on horizon). Only small fixes, if necessary.

[chaos45]

Ehh I like to complain about things that dont make sense.

I still say if you want them to be mech they should be mech from day 1 so I can assign mech commanders and be done with it.

Other option would be to make forming Cav Corps free to make up for the AP tax your going to get hit with in 1943 when the ToE changes.

I know you dont seem to think the horses/armamanets is equal but look at how much in armaments the cav cost to maintain all those cav corps eats into Soviet armaments alot that really is penalty enough.

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...is so many non-historical things on both sides, and in all honesty horses werent something either side lacked...both sides used massive amounts of horses. The reason the Soviets moved to more mechanized units is because historically they could due to lend lease. German generals even talk about the battles after 1943 and how Soviet mobility allowed them to get more men out of bad situations and reduce the Germans ability to inflict losses and completely destroy soviet units and material.

[Zebedee]

Thank you guys. Really looking forward to trying this.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Ehh I like to complain about things that dont make sense.

I still say if you want them to be mech they should be mech from day 1 so I can assign mech commanders and be done with it.

Other option would be to make forming Cav Corps free to make up for the AP tax your going to get hit with in 1943 when the ToE changes.

I know you dont seem to think the horses/armamanets is equal but look at how much in armaments the cav cost to maintain all those cav corps eats into Soviet armaments alot that really is penalty enough.

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...is so many non-historical things on both sides, and in all honesty horses werent something either side lacked...both sides used massive amounts of horses. The reason the Soviets moved to more mechanized units is because historically they could due to lend lease. German generals even talk about the battles after 1943 and how Soviet mobility allowed them to get more men out of bad situations and reduce the Germans ability to inflict losses and completely destroy soviet units and material.

problem is training a horse well enough to move say artillery under conditions of combat is a challenge, to train one this well takes some time:

[M60A3TTS]

Well since the CV is seemingly now tied to what Morvael described as "good horses" I am wondering which ones are firing the rifles?

[chaos45]

Loki- Typically the horse didnt go right into the frontlines. WW2 Cavalry untis were mounted infantry. Once close to the front they dismounted and a handler took the horses to the rear to avoid the horses being wiped out. Which was another of the reasons the soviets moved away from Cavalry was they were manpower intensive since a couple extra men in each squad were needed just to remove and care for the squads horses away from the battlefield.

However since only the guys that run die in WiTE both sides have plenty of men to do menial work behind the frontlines lol.

Because a squad on horse will cover more ground more quickly than a squad on foot---infantry divisions in WW2 were just that, infantry on foot with only heavy equipment having any type of transportation.

This was common in all WW2 armies that used cavalry units.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Also to bring up lack of horses as an issue is just dumb honestly...

I concur with this but I would have used stronger language. [:D] This is just a nuisance for the Russian player.

But the patch has some really interesting stuff in it and I also would like to thank morvael for his efforts. [&o]

[loki100]

*ahem*: seems like these guys didn't get the message?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

*ahem*: seems like these guys didn't get the message?

As a history professor you should know that one picture doesn't proof anything. What's next? Quotes from Wikipedia pages? [:D]

[chaos45]

yes those guys were when my cavalry were brand new conscripts from from their Steppe huts.......now they are battle hardened and fight as proper mounted infantry [8D]

[c00per]

I want bicycle troops , but seriously the update looks good to me. Sure some soviet troops got morale reduction, but 80% of the army got a morale improvement. The way I look at any game is the more debate and heated controversy is a good sign of a balanced game. If everyone agreed with the umpires then no need to play the game.

[mooreshawnm]

Just started a 41-45 GC on Saturday. It is the German turn 4. Will it be a problem if we update at this time?

[chaos45]

moore- if you guys just started would suggest to restart with current patch. As alot of OOB and under the hood changes to logistics were put in.

You can continue u on as current but none of the OOB changes will be in effect unless you start a game under the new patch is my understanding.

[JamesM]

There is an issue with withdrawing air groups to National reserve on the Soviet side when sorting aircraft into airbases and aircraft model via the Commander's Report. If you select airbase or type of aircraft from the initial list into alphabetical order then zoom to the specific aircraft type or air base you cannot withdraw the aircraft into the National reserve (if you select the individual air group you can withdraw to national reserve from the information screen). However, if you zoom to the type of aircraft or airbase from an unsorted list you can withdraw the aircraft to national reserve via the Commander's report.

[morvael]

For a while I'll just be collecting the reports (with links to posts), so don't expect fast answers to each report, but be aware they are not lost.

[charlie0311]

Oh, crap, and dad gum it. Is this also the case if you sort by morale?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

103. The chance to rout and retreat losses will be now slightly affected by final combat odds divided by 5 (so between 1:4.99 and 4.99:1 there should be no change, but beyond those ratios losses may be larger and rout may happen more often, also for units with morale above 55).

An interesting change but why only "slightly affected?" Should the odds play a much bigger role. Another suggestion would be to make regiments route/shatter faster depending on combat odds. I've had games were the entire flank of a German army group was protected by a bunch of unroutable security regiments. [:D] Would be cool to be able to route or shatter these tiny units. Same goes for Russian NKVD regiments.

[Kursk1943]

Regarding cavalry: I'm just reading the superb book "Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars" about the Soviet offensive Nov 42 against the Rshew salient held by 9th Army. There is a vivid description from both the Soviet and the German side about 20th Army trying to support 6th Tank Corps by 2nd Guards Cav Corps. The Corps tried to bypass some German held strongpoints by a mounted attack with the result that some regiments were nearly wiped out by artillery and small arms fire within 2 hours. The Corps lost half of its strength that day. So much about losses in combat and about doctrine. It's not easy to stick to doctrine if you are pressed by both Konev as commander of the Western front and Zhukov as overall coordinator...[:D]

[chaos45]

Yep which is my point if the Soviet player doesnt get all his cavalry wiped out why are they being penalized.

[morvael]

IMHO the cavalry bonus for Soviet cavalry is not necessary at all. Time of being elite formation passed, these were regulars like rifles. Especially if one considers the speed with which these formations were wasted, destroyed and rebuilt.