churchill tank dance

[STIENER]

seriously.....I thought tank pathing was fixed?? I have been playing knights in a GC, he's allied im german. I have been watching his Churchill tanks do crazy shit...and he's not happy about it. from what I can see so far its the Churchill that's the worst, the Sherman and the mk 4 don't dance as much it appears so far, but I may be wrong. knights gives them short move orders to back them up and they TURN AROUND...damn near every time!! its amazing to watch and my A/T gunners love it but that's not the point...whats with this?? I have seen him give a move right off the road order and the Churchill carry on down the road for another 150m before it slowly started to move to the right. lots of crazy stuff. but the big one is the move to back up order doesn't seem to work. the tanks turn around instead.
can we look into this.

[SteveMcClaire]

Nothing has changed in the pathfinder recently, so if you're seeing some new behavior, I assume it is being caused by some other factor. Have you recently installed a data file mod?

Steve

[STIENER]

no mods...stock game with the patch.
load it up urself and move a Churchill around the hedge rows. give it a move back order and watch it turn around.

[crackwise]

The GtC roads are somewhat problematic to move tanks on them. Tanks tend to follow the road at all costs instead of going offroad, even if it means they will be taking the longer route.

I think this behavior I mentioned combined with some unseen road contour (road coding etc.) makes them do awkward stuff while moving.

[STIENER]

Churchill tank seems to turn around when given the move backwards order, more then the other tanks in GWTC.

[SteveMcClaire]

The path finder will favor the fastest route when you use 'Move Fast' even though this may not be the most direct route. And many GTC maps have soft ground and/or mud, which makes it even more likely for vehicles to stick to the roads. You can use 'Move' instead to get a more direct route, or use waypoints to make sure the vehicle doesn't detour too far out off the path you want.

And there's no special case coding for any given vehicle or type of vehicle, in terms of using reverse. If you use 'Sneak' and the destination is behind the vehicle they will almost always use reverse (unless that would back up towards a known threat.) 'Move' will do so if the overall distance is less than about 50m, and 'Move Fast' if the destination is within 25m.

Steve

[RD_Knights_X]

Steve.....my experience (which Steiner is trying to convey here) is that if, for instance, a Churchill takes fire when looking over a hedgerow, and is given a Sneak order to (hopefully) backup a very short distance, it instead turns (presenting its vulnerable rear to the enemy AT fire) to drive forward in the reverse direction. That is the issue. To Steiner's credit, he is articulating my extreme frustration for a battle the other night where I lost all 3 of my Churchill tanks to his PAK-75mm because of the movement exhibited, as explained above.

[SteveMcClaire]

And you're saying this is unique to the Churchill tank? Or does it also happen if you start a battle, put any tank on the map, and then give it a sneak order behind the tank?

Steve

[STIENER]

so far it looks like it is just the Churchill tank. knights? you have played the game longer than me. your thoughts,\.

[RD_Knights_X]

Well, it has been most notable with the Churchill tanks. I've seen other Allied tanks models (shermans) backup properly....but I hesitate to make an emphatic statement here. I'll pay more attention and report back.

[STIENER]

just played some more tonite with knights. I moved my mk 4's and tigers around a lot on purpose to see what they would do.
my conclusion is that the german tanks do the dance as much as the Churchill.
I tried your suggestions steve....50m or less move order to back up, and 50m or less in sneak. 8 out of 10 times the tank...mk 4 or tiger will try to turn around.
in one instance my mk 4 was on a road trying to back into an open area that hand some wood debris. not much but that's what the area said...wood debris....and I could not get the mk 4 to back up...no matter what I tried.
another mk 4 in another instance would not back up in an open area. no reason in should not have backed up.
similar stuff going on with the tigers on roads with hedges.
will keep watching for this pathing issue in up coming games......

[Housies]

ORIGINAL: STIENER

just played some more tonite with knights. I moved my mk 4's and tigers around a lot on purpose to see what they would do.
my conclusion is that the german tanks do the dance as much as the Churchill.
I tried your suggestions steve....50m or less move order to back up, and 50m or less in sneak. 8 out of 10 times the tank...mk 4 or tiger will try to turn around.
in one instance my mk 4 was on a road trying to back into an open area that hand some wood debris. not much but that's what the area said...wood debris....and I could not get the mk 4 to back up...no matter what I tried.
another mk 4 in another instance would not back up in an open area. no reason in should not have backed up.
similar stuff going on with the tigers on roads with hedges.
will keep watching for this pathing issue in up coming games......

Steiner,

Please try backing up by giving the "move" order (blue) only at 2 meter away, or as short to the tank as possible. This usually gives good results for me.

[STIENER]

ok...been playing a lot of GWTC with two diff opponents. all three of us are appalled at the tank dance. seriously, this is just not acceptable guys.
were seeing all the tanks, german and allied, doing stupid shit. they turn around in open fields when you want them to move forward. the spin when they come up to the hedge edges. they turn around when asked to move backwards 20 m. its just nuts. and theres no damn ryme or reason. they act just fine 50% of the time but you never know when there going to do something stupid under the guns of the enemy.
this isn't tank pathing worthy of this game after ALL this TIME.

seriously...look at this.

[CGGrognard]

As Housies says, give. The Move command at a short distance a try. The move command works fairly well for me though occasionally I do get the dancing tank. And that usually happens around hedge rows or narrow roads.

[STIENER]

this not being my 1st rodeo, have tried all this stuff before. sometimes the SHORT move order works sometimes is does not. the point is that tank pathing should NOT be an issue with CC after all this time.
IMO it could possible be WORSE than it ever was and this is supposed to be a state of the art game.

nothing like being in the thick of a big tank battle with multiple tanks and you have to micro manage each tank or they turn there backs on the enemy guns..... [&:][:@][:-][8|]

[CGGrognard]

I understand the frustration of micro managing tanks. You issue an order for your tank to back up 10 meters, check on another unit only to discover that the tank is now turning around to travel that 10 meters. To add insult to injury, that said tank is destroyed by an enemy tank that just pulled into view. [:@]

[STIENER]

had a tiger tank tonite move backwards thru some rubble when given a move fast order. it would NOT turn around!! I tried all the usual stuff....sneak,move,move fast...stopping it, trying to get it to turn around and NOT back up. it was painfull.

the tank pathing is a mess. u usually cant get them to back up with out turning around and then this happens.it was stupid. u cant tell me the tank pathing is refined in this game...its the worst ive seen in the CC series.

[STIENER]

steve
im playing allied in a GC. the Churchill tank is just terrible. they absolutely turn right around and show the back of the tank when asked to cross a hedge!in one case tonite.... I had 1 churchill that was half thru the hedge shooting. I gave it a move forward order about 100 m and then went to my next Churchill and gave it a 50m move forward to a hedge to cross it and the 1st tank TURNED AROUND! BOOM....DESTROYED FROM ENEMY A/T. the second one had ALSO TURNED AROUND ...BOOM!

seriously this cant possibly be what you want in tank pathing. we SEE THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. IM NOT THE ONLY ONE. I KNOW 3 OTHER PLAYERS IM PLAYING RIGHT NOW THAT SEE THE SAME BEHAVIOR. I can not believe other players post here...as above and are ok with the tank behavior???? wow.

all the tanks want to move to the road to move in allot of cases, when given a move fast or move order if its more than 100m. this is just not acceptable. when you give a move order in a straight line...why would I want it to turn 90* and move to a road?????

the tank pathing is just plain BAD and I cant understand why at this point in the series its just SO BAD. it destroys the playability of the game. it really does. my attack was utterly destroyed by BAD tank pathing !!! my moral dropped and the battle stopped. just ******

I cant put into words how mad and disapointed this is making me in this game that I paid really good money for.
you guys should do something about it.

[STIENER]

wow...it took me literally 10 minutes to get a Churchill tank to cross a hedge tonite. I had 2 churchills trying to cross the same hedge. the 1st one got immobilized right away the second one took 10 MINUTES to micro manage it, [ couldn't play any other part of the game doing this ] to get it to go over the hedge. it was truly amazing...and im not saying that in a good way. the tank went back and forth...backed up....did nothing for awhile....moved itself sideways to the hedge...lots of cool stuff...NOT. I was using sneak and move...10m moves to try to get it to cross.
TOTAL BS.

any comments matrix?

[SteveMcClaire]

Steiner,

I will look at this when I have time, but I am 99% sure there is nothing special about the Churchill. The only thing that could possibly be different is the data in vehicles.txt.

It would help a lot if you could give me an example to reproduce this -- i.e. play battle X, place Churchill here and order it to move here (with screenshot of tank location and order dot.)

The only thing I can think of that could influence this and that is unique to GtC is the mud. And if you're using a move fast order the tank is going to choose the fastest route. If that means driving to a road instead of straight across a muddy field, it may end up doing this. But this should not be unique to the Churchill, and if you place any vehicle at the same spot and give it the same order, it should do the same.

Waypoints will let you control the exact path if you don't want to leave the AI to take the path that is the shortest in terms of movement time.

Steve