Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) GHC Victory
Moderator: MOD_WarintheWest
RE: Cobra exploit
Only 4 battles which total 8k dead and total dead for turn was 44,000 so 65% of loses is caused by bombing alone and I am taking out 4-5k for attrition. So 3 months of non-historical loses as we all know bombing only caused 20% of loses. And we all know Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10 weeks.
- Attachments
-
- 2.jpg (127.8 KiB) Viewed 617 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: Cobra exploit
Turn 49
WA Loses: 256,000
GHC Loses: 268,000
Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000
Total loses last 10 turns
WA Loses: 86,000
GHC Loses: 286,000
Ratio: 3.5 to 1 Historical lose ratio for Normandy 1:1 and most caused by artillery fire not bombing.
WA Loses: 256,000
GHC Loses: 268,000
Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000
Total loses last 10 turns
WA Loses: 86,000
GHC Loses: 286,000
Ratio: 3.5 to 1 Historical lose ratio for Normandy 1:1 and most caused by artillery fire not bombing.
- Attachments
-
- 3.jpg (163.46 KiB) Viewed 617 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: Cobra exploit
There is down side to this exploit as can clearly be seen not bombing Germany or V sites give zip for VP’s
and Loses are kept light because the planes kill at least 65% of the Germans. 10-12k Panzer Divisions in a single turn drop to 5k.
and Loses are kept light because the planes kill at least 65% of the Germans. 10-12k Panzer Divisions in a single turn drop to 5k.
- Attachments
-
- 4.jpg (125.04 KiB) Viewed 617 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: Cobra exploit
I posted the data, the historical loses for Normandy, historical loses based on type.
If you like to post based on data historical or in game to say how this is not an exploit do, post away.
If your simply going to whine or say so and so exploites so that makes this exploit ok.
As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.
This is not Desert Storm, its WW II
panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:
We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:
by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%
So Operation Cobra lasted a week and loses were only 50% by bombing and yet WitW gives 60-70% for 10 weeks.
Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:
Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths
The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).
Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:
From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]
— J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower
Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.
If you like to post based on data historical or in game to say how this is not an exploit do, post away.
If your simply going to whine or say so and so exploites so that makes this exploit ok.
As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.
This is not Desert Storm, its WW II
panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:
We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:
by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%
So Operation Cobra lasted a week and loses were only 50% by bombing and yet WitW gives 60-70% for 10 weeks.
Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:
Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths
The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).
Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:
From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]
— J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower
Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.
- Attachments
-
- 48003-004-0DA5FC07.jpg (109.72 KiB) Viewed 617 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: Cobra exploit
"The analysts point out that in June, July, August and September the 8th Air Force did a lot of tactical bombing, whereas in October the 8th Air Force engaged in exclusively on strategic targets."
Epidemiology of Injuries
Primary weapons of war can be divided into explosive munitions and small arms.
Explosive munitions: Artillery, grenades, mortars, bombs, rockets, mines, improvised explosive devices, etc.
Small arms: Pistols, rifles, and machine guns.
The most common battlefield injury pattern is multiple fragment wounds involving multiple anatomical sites.
The ears are most often affected by the blast wave, followed by the lungs and the gastrointestinal (GI) tract hollow organs. GI injuries may present 24 hours later. Injury from blast is a pressure and time-dependent function. By increasing the pressure or its duration, the severity of injury will also increase
WW2
"the 70-75% casualties are from fragmentation producing weapons, this includes bombs, artillery, hand grenades, mortars, etc. and was gathered from casualty data. The doctors or graves registration personnel didn't concern themselves with what weapon actually caused the fragmentation. Just like a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound, they don't generally know if it came from an infantryman's rifle, a sniper or a machinegun. It could be/was further refined by after action reports, if the battle included artillery and mortars but no aircraft then you know bombs weren't a factor."
Epidemiology of Injuries
Primary weapons of war can be divided into explosive munitions and small arms.
Explosive munitions: Artillery, grenades, mortars, bombs, rockets, mines, improvised explosive devices, etc.
Small arms: Pistols, rifles, and machine guns.
The most common battlefield injury pattern is multiple fragment wounds involving multiple anatomical sites.
The ears are most often affected by the blast wave, followed by the lungs and the gastrointestinal (GI) tract hollow organs. GI injuries may present 24 hours later. Injury from blast is a pressure and time-dependent function. By increasing the pressure or its duration, the severity of injury will also increase
WW2
"the 70-75% casualties are from fragmentation producing weapons, this includes bombs, artillery, hand grenades, mortars, etc. and was gathered from casualty data. The doctors or graves registration personnel didn't concern themselves with what weapon actually caused the fragmentation. Just like a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound, they don't generally know if it came from an infantryman's rifle, a sniper or a machinegun. It could be/was further refined by after action reports, if the battle included artillery and mortars but no aircraft then you know bombs weren't a factor."
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
RE: Cobra exploit
As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.
Why is a few weeks ok but not more?
How many civilians were killed by aircraft?
What if that destruction was applied to the battlefield instead?
Ive posted lots of info showing that some of the commanders at the time wanted to do such.
But then, what is a QUOTE from people actually there compared to a statistic from years later.
Can I get "50-70% by artillery fire" enemy casualties even when I have no artillery in the battle?
It can be said that Naval guns caused less than 1% of ground casualties in ww2. So units on the coast can expect the same, just 1% casualties?
In game, as many troops as there are being bombed in would be hard not to hit something.
Are you saying aircraft are too powerful? OR Iam using them too much?
If you are saying that they are too powerful and should be coded down, then for WiTE 2.0 it may be best to leave that small number of Luftwaffe on the airfield.
Or will their effect have to be coded back up?
You are more than likely going to win, or have you crunched the data and hexs ,till the end, and it shows a possible different ending?
"whine"? If so Iam merely a faint echo.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
RE: Cobra exploit
[moved to the other thread]
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
ITALY EXPLOIT
This is a look at the Allies' Italian Campaign
My invasion plan was based on a what I call a Reverse Anzio.
I would land my my most powerful force first at Anzio "Operation Tiger". Knowing with a 98% certainty that it would be met with a equally powerful force to contain it. It's mission was to test the waters of German reaction, then HOLD or more presiscely make the Germans "HOLD THAT TIGER".
The was a small chance the Germans may withdraw north of the invasion. I was counting a strong force to surround my force, which if I managed right could not be thrown back or torn apart and annilihated.
The smaller invasion "Operation Wolf" landed a week later at Salerno with the mission to grow in force then capture "RAVAGE" all of south Italy and eventually link up with Tiger.
We were able to capture Naples, Foggia and ALL of south Italy up to the Gothic Line, as the Germans had withdrawn all forces to that line.
Patton "Tiger" was the anvil and Monty "Wolf" was the hammer.
Over the winter I maintained pressure with attrition, ground attacks and bombing railyards . I had follow up invasions prepping for both the west and east coast of Italy. They have been redirected.
My intention was to make the Germans mantain "2 Fronts" in Italy which put a strain on the Germans that would result in a collapse of the front.
Hoped that the Germans would be worn down holding 2 fronts with out realizing thats what they were doing.
My invasion plan was based on a what I call a Reverse Anzio.
I would land my my most powerful force first at Anzio "Operation Tiger". Knowing with a 98% certainty that it would be met with a equally powerful force to contain it. It's mission was to test the waters of German reaction, then HOLD or more presiscely make the Germans "HOLD THAT TIGER".
The was a small chance the Germans may withdraw north of the invasion. I was counting a strong force to surround my force, which if I managed right could not be thrown back or torn apart and annilihated.
The smaller invasion "Operation Wolf" landed a week later at Salerno with the mission to grow in force then capture "RAVAGE" all of south Italy and eventually link up with Tiger.
We were able to capture Naples, Foggia and ALL of south Italy up to the Gothic Line, as the Germans had withdrawn all forces to that line.
Patton "Tiger" was the anvil and Monty "Wolf" was the hammer.
Over the winter I maintained pressure with attrition, ground attacks and bombing railyards . I had follow up invasions prepping for both the west and east coast of Italy. They have been redirected.
My intention was to make the Germans mantain "2 Fronts" in Italy which put a strain on the Germans that would result in a collapse of the front.
Hoped that the Germans would be worn down holding 2 fronts with out realizing thats what they were doing.
- Attachments
-
- m2.jpg (815.49 KiB) Viewed 617 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
Breakout!!!
Allies Breakout of Normandy
Poles, Brits, Yanks Land by Sea in North Brittany
Normandy Ground Forces Link with Brittany Invasion
Rennes, Mortain, Loudeac, St. Brienc Liberated
Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest
U.S. 2nd Armor - Conquerors of the Appian Way, Liberators of Rome, and now Overlords of Normandy.
41st Armored Infantry on the move.
Private Joseph De Freitas, from Yonkers (New York), of the 41st Armored Infantry prepares a meal.
SALUTE!!! to 41st Armored Infantry, 2nd Armor Division.
Poles, Brits, Yanks Land by Sea in North Brittany
Normandy Ground Forces Link with Brittany Invasion
Rennes, Mortain, Loudeac, St. Brienc Liberated
Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest
U.S. 2nd Armor - Conquerors of the Appian Way, Liberators of Rome, and now Overlords of Normandy.
41st Armored Infantry on the move.
Private Joseph De Freitas, from Yonkers (New York), of the 41st Armored Infantry prepares a meal.
SALUTE!!! to 41st Armored Infantry, 2nd Armor Division.
- Attachments
-
- brk2ad.jpg (1.04 MiB) Viewed 617 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
RE: ITALY EXPLOIT
ORIGINAL: KWG
Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest
so glad you didn't mis-spell that
how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?
RE: ITALY EXPLOIT
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: KWG
Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest
so glad you didn't mis-spell that
how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?
[:)] I was wondering if anyone would catch that!
The steel wall is still strong but its foundation is disappearing.
5 of his Infantry divisions are surrounded. He is staying put and extending his left flank . With weaker units the futher left it goes.
Instead of attacking the 5 Infantry divisions I decide to surround them then attack them in a isolated condition.
The red zone had Security units, that were for the most part weak and were pushed/routed out of the way.
Most of my Air Forces were given the week off.
He still has troops in southern France, but it does not look like many. When the next invasion hits it may be a open road to Paris.
- Attachments
-
- xxx.jpg (692.38 KiB) Viewed 617 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
RE: ITALY EXPLOIT
ORIGINAL: KWG
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: KWG
Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest
so glad you didn't mis-spell that
how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?
[:)] I was wondering if anyone would catch that!
The steel wall is still strong but its foundation is disappearing.
5 of his Infantry divisions are surrounded. He is staying put and extending his left flank . With weaker units the futher left it goes.
Instead of attacking the 5 Infantry divisions I decide to surround them then attack them in a isolated condition.
The red zone had Security units, that were for the most part weak and were pushed/routed out of the way.
Most of my Air Forces were given the week off.
He still has troops in southern France, but it does not look like many. When the next invasion hits it may be a open road to Paris.
...
och, you should see what I get away with in some of my AGEOD AARs, bad puns and innuendo all over the place [8D]
be interesting to see if Pelton shifts his mindset from tenaciously holding every hex to trying to draw you away from your supply bases?
RE: ITALY EXPLOIT
Love the additional unit insignia. Please share them with us all.
John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: loki100
och, you should see what I get away with in some of my AGEOD AARs, bad puns and innuendo all over the place [8D]
be interesting to see if Pelton shifts his mindset from tenaciously holding every hex to trying to draw you away from your supply bases?
Your AARs are entertaining to read. Where are you getting you rarely seen pics? I found http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338 ... start=1610
SSHHH!!! Not too loud. The Germans have been SO HELPFUL to stay close to us while we built up our supplies and ports. We would not like them to leave us before our next invasion.
Unlike Italy, no mountains to save the Germans.
Some posts back I asked the question "What is a main weakness of the Allies?" Advancing.
I must admit Ive gotten a good handle on how the depot system works for the Allies, although Iam sure there is more that I will learn.
It should be interesting to see how it plays in WitE.
Germans can be too defensive which can be just as bad as being too offensive.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Love the additional unit insignia. Please share them with us all.
Thanks. I think I accidentally deleted some of the ones I did awhile back. Found a few and Ive been making them as I play. I pick a unit that I will try to find the insignia for its support units.
Have done some of the German air units. Ive also done some of the Tank Destroyer units. Will go through them and make some zip packages.
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence or the even Revolutionary War, as alot of our first Infantry Regiments do.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
-
Harrybanana
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:07 am
- Location: Canada
RE: Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: KWG
[
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence...
I'm guessing you are not from NY[:D]
Robert Harris
-
smokindave34
- Posts: 881
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:56 am
RE: Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: KWG
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence
As a proud citizen of Pennsylvania I'm slightly offended [:)]. Next you'll be calling the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression".
RE: Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
ORIGINAL: KWG
[
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence...
I'm guessing you are not from NY[:D]
Boston... sort of...
Born rasied in the Heart of the Heart of Dixie. By way of
Tennessee- land give to Revolutionary War vets
North Carolina - End of Revolutionary War
Boston - where some my ancestors were the kids that started the Salem witch trials.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
RE: Breakout!!!
ORIGINAL: smokindave34
ORIGINAL: KWG
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence
As a proud citizen of Pennsylvania I'm slightly offended [:)]. Next you'll be calling the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression".
Just... "Civil War" is so bland and who knows what Civil War as they can be a dime a dozen.
"War of Northern Aggression". Too impolite. Dont want to offend.[:)]
"War for Southern Independence" suites the perspective better.
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
Breakout!!!
Week 58
We have surrounded 5 German Infantry divisions, linked up with the Brittany beachead, surrounded 3 German units in the port town of Malo and begun the breakout into western France.
Medium Air activity this week as squadrons were put on rest. Bombed Vweapon lauch site and some HI and Fuel targets.
In Italy we have liberated several more towns and pushed north. still not encountering the main German defences yet.
We have surrounded 5 German Infantry divisions, linked up with the Brittany beachead, surrounded 3 German units in the port town of Malo and begun the breakout into western France.
Medium Air activity this week as squadrons were put on rest. Bombed Vweapon lauch site and some HI and Fuel targets.
In Italy we have liberated several more towns and pushed north. still not encountering the main German defences yet.
- Attachments
-
- battles.jpg (228.69 KiB) Viewed 617 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."