Minefield problems...

SPWaW is a tactical squad-level World War II game on single platoon or up to an entire battalion through Europe and the Pacific (1939 to 1945).

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V-man
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Post by V-man »

Originally posted by Don Doom:


I also find the AI and some people have units sitting next to the mine field, which the shells do a nice job of removing. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">


Perhaps, but not having your troops in a position to observe anyone coming through is a good way to neutralise your own obstacles.

Mines *must* be covered with fires, either pre-planned arty or direct fires, otherwise the field can be cleared with ease.

Since you don't seem to be one to place troops near your minefields, I'd *love* to have to assault you. My infantry are only in danger from your arty and tank fire, and I can use smoke to make your arty miss, counterbattery your arty, and suppress/destroy your tanks with my own.

It takes infantry to guarantee stopping infantry or engineers from clearing a minefield.

V-man
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V-man
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Post by V-man »

Originally posted by Bing:
Mines under the versions since the later beta 7.0 have become a lot more interesting than before.

Lots of times leg troops, armored cars and upon occasion a tank will go right thru a mined hex and nothing will happen, I will not even know the hex is mined. Then, semeingly at random, the third or fourth unit to traverse the hex WHAMMO!!!

Bing

This is because of minefield density. If there are only ten mines in a hex, and the hexes *are* 50 meters across, that is a thin density. If the field is 50 mines, then there is an average of one mine for every 5 meters straight forward you walk - a far greater density.

V-man
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Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
V-man
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Post by V-man »

Originally posted by Challenge:
The problem I see with the one-hex-wide path is a bottleneck. Yes you can move through a spred out on the other side, but what's the opposition doing. With the AI it isn't much of an issue, but a human p[layer will pulverize that hex with everything available -- Art, AT, HE, MG, etc, ad nausium. It costs more to move through an occupied hex so it slows you down.

With a three- or four-hex opening, you can push through with less resistance.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]

And if you screw up your smoke screen or run out of smoke ammo, even the AI can figure out that he ought to shoot at you.
"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."
Vathailos
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More mine-clearing thoughts...

Post by Vathailos »

Greetings all. First post, but have loved SPWaW (in its many incarnations) for years now. Glad to finally find this forum, no prior acces to playing partners. Therefore: AI Ace, PBeM novice.

RE: Types of units and ability to clear

As posted above, Infantry can only clear mines if they're IN the mined hex. Engineers can clear mines if they're adjacent to any mined hex.

Engineers also always spot mined hexes if they move into them, Infantry may not (if they don't detonate one while walking through it). Both types have the ability to spot minefields if they luckily happen to end a turn in a hex adjacent to a mine field (as can Recon units, and perhaps other types - anyone able to confirm?). I think that the Engineers have a better chance however of actually spotting the mines as well as removing.

Supression effects mine removal effectiveness. In my experience, an Engineer squad unobserved/unsupressed can clear mines more effectively than one under direct/indirect fire (which is realistic). And contemporary docterine dictates that you always have observers at your obstacle plans and cover them with either direct or indirect fires. Does anyone have any figures to either support or disprove this theory?

RE: Mine-clearing vehicles

I think mine-clearing tanks/ploughs operate in a removal fashion similar to that of Engineers. Namely, if they're adjacent to the field, and stationary (facing the field) for a turn, they begin to clear the hex. It has not however been my experience that they should be driven into mined hexes! They also have the secondary benefits of being able to withstand heavier hits from the front (because of dozer blades, etc.) and those listed in a thread prior.

RE: Using artillery in and around minefields

I have the made a few observations. First off, heavy artillery is useful as an "accidental" detection method. Often, when shelling suspected positions as a prelude to an assault, I'll notice that the impact of my shells detonates the enemy's mines. That I appreciate, I'll keep the Engineers loaded until I'm within a couple of hexes of the newly discovered field, drop them, pop smoke. I'll then immediatly re-fire my barrage (adjusting slightly if necessary) with WP/smoke instead of HE. Once screened, I'll move the dismounted Engineers up to the field (and probe around) to begin the removal process with the vehicles in overwatch.

I wouldn't recommend heavy artillery as a method for clearing minefields. It's not terribly reliable, and creates craters, which lower your movement rates when passing through them. Flame tanks are much better at rapidly clearing a path that you can then hastily advance through and exploit. Just don't stop in a burning hex, does bad things to your supression ;). If your opponent has any experience, he'll have the field covered by some type of observation and fire. The trick is to quickly clear the obstacle and assault through.

RE: My favorite use of mines/obstacles

Choke points, especially bridges, especially against the AI. A ring of dragon's teeth and mines after a choke point bottle-necks the enemy forces. Great spot for a pre-plot. Bridges are best because you can put one dragon's tooth at the bridge "exit" to pile up vehicles on the bridge. Then you take the Engineers with satchel charge or a 150+ mm direct fire weapon and target the bridge hex. Any/all vehicles/troops on that hex will be destroyed as the bridge collapses.

Any input on effectove use of mine-clearing tanks would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
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Bernie
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Post by Bernie »

Charles mentions seeing crews clearing mines, and I've seen MC units doing it also. I suspect that any "leg" unit, or pseudo-leg unit (like MC's and bicycle toops) will do it.
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RobertS
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Post by RobertS »

The minenrams are not detecting and clearing mines, because they're not minenrams. You have to edit that particular scenario, switch over to the Czech OOB and change the unit. Right now, they're just paper tigers.
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Charles2222
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Post by Charles2222 »

Berine:
Charles mentions seeing crews clearing mines, and I've seen MC units doing it also. I suspect that any "leg" unit, or pseudo-leg unit (like MC's and bicycle toops) will do it.
I think you're correct there, though the notable exception of what I typically classify as leg unit, though it sort of is not (though they certainly aren't mobilized in the common sense of the term) is the ski units. I haven't ever tried ski units of another country, but the GE ones sure won't do it.
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Grenadier
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Post by Grenadier »

In the Stalingrad campaign I set up one of the battles with a platoon of engineers clearing mines behind the lines. The AI makes a very large attack anfd the player has to choose whether to stop the mine removal and bring up the engineers or continue the mine clearing. The German armor is behind the mines so they will not get up to the battle without taking losses unless the engineers finish clearing the mines. The VO's are points per turn so the player has to balance the loss of points versus the loss of men and tanks.:D :D

The more experience an engineer unit has the faster it removes the mines. Once mines are identified the following infantry can circumvent the mined hexes and move forward rapidly under smoke cover. Using the mineramen to run parrallel to the front will quickly identify the paths through the field. NO one puts mines in every hex unless it is a Sevastopol or Kursk scenario:D
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Brent, I thought that if an Engineer was in a mined hex, others could safely pass through that hex.:confused:
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Grenadier
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Post by Grenadier »

If you click on a unit it will indicate the path and the hexes with mines in them are darkened. If you pass into a hex with engineers and mines you still may get hit. It is assumed that the engineers are in the process of identifying and removing the mines and until the hex no longer has the mine symbol it is active.
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Good to know that. I had read you could safely pass through but hadn't tried it yet. Now I won't even attempt it.

Do Flails and Blade tanks get a free pass through mines or do they blow up with the same chance as everything else?

Thanks.
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Procrustes
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Post by Procrustes »

Originally posted by rbrunsman
Do Flails and Blade tanks get a free pass through mines or do they blow up with the same chance as everything else?

Thanks.


My experience has been that they can blow up like everything else.

One question, though..... It's been a while, but I thought I had found that engineers will actually clear mines from more than one hex - it seemed like it was the hexes in their field of view. So if there were mines in hexes 1 & 2, you can point your engineer kinda between them and the unit will take out mines in both hexes. Was this just a dream, or has anyone else found the same?
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Post by Martin Sabre »

Originally posted by Procrustes
My experience has been that they can blow up like everything else.

One question, though..... It's been a while, but I thought I had found that engineers will actually clear mines from more than one hex - it seemed like it was the hexes in their field of view. So if there were mines in hexes 1 & 2, you can point your engineer kinda between them and the unit will take out mines in both hexes. Was this just a dream, or has anyone else found the same?


I think I have come across that a few times in the past with engineers. I'm mucking around with an Assault scenario right now, I'll see if I can recreate it again.
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Wolfleader
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Post by Wolfleader »

The mine clearing tanks work the same as engineers, you move them to a hex in front of a minefield and let them do their work only mine clearing tanks are much better protected from small arms fire of hunkered down infantry who may be watching over the minefield than an engineer squad.

Not sure if they clear mines faster than engineer squads though.
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Is it just me, or are the mineclearers and minelayers very slow. In a whole game if I set about laying mines, I'll only have about 6 put down if I'm lucky (and that's for a unit rarely shot at). And for mineclearing, it really isn't worth the effort in a <25 turn game.:confused:
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Charles2222
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Post by Charles2222 »

rbrunsman:
Is it just me, or are the mineclearers and minelayers very slow. In a whole game if I set about laying mines, I'll only have about 6 put down if I'm lucky (and that's for a unit rarely shot at). And for mineclearing, it really isn't worth the effort in a <25 turn game.
I didn't know there was such a thing as minelayers, unless, that is, you're referring to the engineer foot units doing that. My experience with mostly GE troops is that engineers have never exceeded producing 10 in one battle, however, that's not a true indicator, because I often will switch the hex being mined once I've got the first hex up to 2-3 mines. As well, I have the other obscuring general flow of combat fact in which if an engineer hadn't run into opposition within 15-25 turns, I've very likely moved them to another position. For the most part it's probably safe to assume that with engineers with a ranking of 70 or so, you're pretty fortunate to get 10 mines in 20 turns. In the case of playing with poor rated troops, the laying of mines is debateably more of a hinderance to the inevitable counterattack, than to the benefit of stopping the attack in the first place.
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