River Entrapement

[VANorm]

It seems like rivers provide a little too much of a barrier to non-activated Russian units.

Even cross an adjacent river into open terrain would cost 25 + 20 = 45 APs; early in the game, most non-activated Russian movement will be 40 APs.

For instance, my entire 12th Army is just sitting south of the Dniestr, waiting to eventually be by-passed. It's like there were absolutely no crossing points for 3-400 miles.

I wonder if it would be better to have a Foot AP for Open terrain 20 rather than 25 APs - the river would certainly still present a significant barrier, but would not trap entire armies. Maybe a discount for starting adjacent.

Unless this is a really an accurate portrayal?

[KenchiSulla]

I think of it this way.. the river isn't trapping your army, the actual army is trapping the army..... No initiative and no orders to withdraw (abandon bridgehead) equals death...

[etsadler]

You can think about it any way you want to, the result is the same, can't cross the river. I would support a rule that 40 APs means you can always move 1 hex regardless of the actual AP cost.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: nstewart

It seems like rivers provide a little too much of a barrier to non-activated Russian units.

Even cross an adjacent river into open terrain would cost 25 + 20 = 45 APs; early in the game, most non-activated Russian movement will be 40 APs.

For instance, my entire 12th Army is just sitting south of the Dniestr, waiting to eventually be by-passed. It's like there were absolutely no crossing points for 3-400 miles.

I wonder if it would be better to have a Foot AP for Open terrain 20 rather than 25 APs - the river would certainly still present a significant barrier, but would not trap entire armies. Maybe a discount for starting adjacent.

Unless this is a really an accurate portrayal?

It is certainly possible there is no way across within a few hexes. I don't know what that particular river looks like but there are plenty of places on the Mississippi that you couldn't cross no matter how much energy you had without boats.

[lancer]

Hi,

Soviet units that don't activate will now receive 50 AP instead of 40 for exactly this reason.

Next update. Soon.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Michael T]

This is a good fix. I hate that 12th Army gets stuck on the wrong side of that river. It means Zhukov can perhaps go elsewhere now other than the Southern Front.

[Tweedledumb]

This is a HUGE change!

Getting the 12th Army over the Dnestr (?) guaranteed, will immeasurably help the Soviets in the south.

One less thing for Zhukov to worry about, as Michael said.

[WingedIncubus]

Nice! I agree this will help the Soviets tremendously.

Can't wait to see the other fixes proposed. [:'(]

[Flaviusx]

Hmmm. Rules change has some interesting consequences besides crossing rivers.

It'll double movement rates of non activating armies across clear terrain lacking roads, at least the leg elements. They'll be able to move 2 hexes now instead of just one.

It also means non activating forces can probably now mostly keep out of reach of German infantry attacking them as they fall back. The mobile elements will still be able to smack them around, to be sure, but it will be more possible now to conduct an organized retreat.

[Amicofritz]

Oops. Flaviusx has a good point. Wouldn't it be better to allow all units one hex minimum movement, river or not, like in many other wargames on this scale?

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Amicofritz

Oops. Flaviusx has a good point. Wouldn't it be better to allow all units one hex minimum movement, river or not, like in many other wargames on this scale?

On the contrary, I think these secondary consequences are GOOD things.

Infantry should struggle to keep up and maintain the offensive against a retreating enemy. Right now that is not the case.

[Isokron]

Wont this just make the russian early armies try to run away that much faster and then form a solid wall?

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Isokron

Wont this just make the russian early armies try to run away that much faster and then form a solid wall?

I think the idea here is to find some kind of middle ground between the iron wall and a gaping hole. 1.02 replaced the former with the latter. (If you were very good you could actually make the gaping hole even in 1.01, but set that aside.)

[Isokron]

But they arent equivalent, the current reinforcement schedule mean you cant create a wall far forward, but given how little holding territory is generally worth to the soviets in this game they could with the new rules retreat far enough with the frontier armies that they can still get the reinforcement ones. So now you will get a wall further back with the frontier+reinforcements rather than a wall further forward with just the reinforcements.

[Michael T]

The whole runaway problem needs to be addressed. As Flavius showed us in our last game. The Soviet can run all the way back to the 3 objectives and just fight it out there. Not much fun or historic.

There needs to be a reason to fight.

[Speedysteve]

Same old challenge that has occurred for all east front games.....

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The whole runaway problem needs to be addressed. As Flavius showed us in our last game. The Soviet can run all the way back to the 3 objectives and just fight it out there. Not much fun or historic.

There needs to be a reason to fight.

Ironically, this rule change might convince me to fight more forward, for various reasons. Firstly, as you've noted, it frees up Zhukov. I can imagine myself, say, throwing him at Western Front now and trying to make a bit of a stand on the Berezina.

Secondly, knowing that non activating armies can still maneuver a bit makes me more willing to risk dropping them in forward locations, as opposed to deep in the rear.

So let's see how this shakes out.

[Michael T]

The problem is you should be forced to fight forward. And the game should be balanced enough so that fighting forward does not mean you lose.

But let's wait and see. Maybe the issue will be addressed somehow in the next beta.

[Michael T]

Same old challenge that has occurred for all east front games....

I know, its like all East Front game designers work in a vacuum and have no idea of the problem. It seems only us players know of it....

And it can be so easily be remedied if only they were aware of it in the early design stages.

This game already has a great structure to implement "Stalin goes crazy" episodes if certain cities fall too soon. So easily it could have been worked out if they were alerted to the problem.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The problem is you should be forced to fight forward. And the game should be balanced enough so that fighting forward does not mean you lose.

But let's wait and see. Maybe the issue will be addressed somehow in the next beta.

Why should you be forced to fight forward? The russians did retreat, and mostly as fast as they could in the center and north. Retreat is what russians do in june 1941. To force them to stand against a far superior army doesn't make any sense. They should not move as fast as the germans but they should certainly be able to retreat.