Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: Rudd

It says a J-10 has a 600nm combat radius, does a J-10 have a longer range than say a F-16? I doubt it.

It says the J-20 has a 1000nm combat radius. Really?
I counted it based on CMANO's database, J-10A's empty loaded combat radius range is 433 nautical miles. That's not including external fuel tank or any weapon.

But reaching to 600nm is possible, when H-6H and/or IL-78 is/are nearby.

As for J-20, they said it has the same room of weapon bay as F-22, but it's 10% bigger than latter. So based on J-11B, which have barely 900nm combat radius unarmed and no external tanks, might be... enough I think?

EDIT: I miscalculated the J-11B's CR. Also, I calculated J-20 in DB3000, the result is 1022nm.
Rudd
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Rudd »

But reaching to 600nm is possible, when H-6H and/or IL-78 is/are nearby.
That's part of my point!

There is always tankers around, blue and red
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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: Rudd
But reaching to 600nm is possible, when H-6H and/or IL-78 is/are nearby.
That's part of my point!

There is always tankers around, blue and red
Sadly there's no such loadout in DB that stripped all the fuel tanks for extra missiles to J-10. I mean, CR is definitely shorter, but after refueling and dispensing AAMs, it might still have enough range to come back.
Rudd
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Rudd »

Say they had a 2000nm radius, and there is no blue land based aircraft support, how big would the strike package have to be to overwhelm a CVBG on the defense, with say half the air wing available on cap and a Tico and 2-3 Burkes with full typical VLS loadouts (these need to be added in CMANO)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the cost would be crazy.

Range isn't the biggest factor, there is too many variables.

Who knows and I hope we never find out.


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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: Rudd

Say they had a 2000nm radius, and there is no blue land based aircraft support, how big would the strike package have to be to overwhelm a CVBG on the defense, with say half the air wing available on cap and a Tico and 2-3 Burkes with full typical VLS loadouts (these need to be added in CMANO)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the cost would be crazy.
Indeed is crazy, but I am trying it right now. A full 7th fleet of:

-- A CVN-73
-- 7 AB2s
-- 2 Ticos
-- 1 Seawolf
-- 1 Virginia
-- 4 regiments of Hornets (half-ready)
-- 1 regiment of Growlers (half-ready)
-- Standard naval AEW and ASW packages
-- All default loadouts for ships
-- All Standard CAP for fighters

Versus

-- 48 DF-21D ASBMs (12 TELs)
-- Set Awareness to Omniscient

I am very certain that four salvo of DF-21Ds will not be enough.
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SeaQueen
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by SeaQueen »

The submarines in a carrier strike group don't help you much versus ASBMs, so they don't count. Neither do the fighters. If anything, their operational radius determines where you need to put the aircraft carriers in order for them to be relevant. Therefore they might help you determine what the goal is for a scenario.

There are a few things to play with in a ballistic missile defense scenario for a carrier strike group. First, is how far out can you detect the incoming missiles? SM-3s can fly a long way in the game so somehow, to take full advantage of their enormous range, you need to figure out how to detect them a long way out. Longer detection range means more opportunities to take a shot. Second, is your inventory. When you're deciding what to put on the ships, you have to balance a lot of different things. SM-3s are only useful against targets in space, so a missile slot used for them makes you stronger against ASBMs, but weaker against ASCMs. Other standard missile incarnations make you stronger against ASCMs but maybe aren't as good against ASBMs. ESSM is good against ASCMS and aircraft but useless against ASBMs. TLAMs enable your ship to strike targets on land, but don't protect it against anything except perhaps in so far as they can destroy things which might attack you. TLAMs, though, should be thought of as basically offensive weapons. Furthermore there's an ASW threat. VLS slots are also taken up with VLA. Regardless, I only have so many ships with so many slots. Thirdly ASBMs are only as effective as the scouting that passes them targets. What are some ways for the player in a scenario to frustrate the enemy sensors while still protecting itself?

A good scenario will balance higher level command's desire to attack the enemy with TLAMs and strike aircraft from the CSG, with the need to defend it against ASBMs, ASCMs, strike aircraft and submarines. That balance manifests itself in the ship's inventory and the scenario ought to invite people to tweak the ship's VLS load in an attempt to determine what the best balance between the different requirements. If I load everything up with TLAMs and nothing else, I'll probably be able to damage the land targets in the scenario, but I'll be a sitting duck against everything else. What is the best mix? Even if I'm loaded with the "best" mix, I still only have so many defensive missiles. How long can I hold stay in striking distance for my aircraft before my missiles are exhausted and I have to withdraw? It'll also give the player leeway to experiment with different options for frustrating the systems which will allow ASBMs to strike in the first place.

So... the issue as I see it is not whether not the CSG can defend itself against one raid, but against multiple raids over a long period of time, as the enemy develops a firing solution against it, fires off a raid, assesses whether the raid was effective, fires off another raid, all the while forcing the CSG to expend defensive missiles, making it weaker and weaker. Can the CSG get within striking distance and stay there for a long enough period of time while being forced to protect itself against successive raids with finite resources? That's a good scenario, in my mind.
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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

It will be a new big scenario if I count these things in, so I just keep it simple and experimental.

Well, even SM-3/6 aren't protecting them as many as they can, the sea however, will have some mercy to the fleet. 2/3 of DF-21D are hitting waters, and only pathetic scoring from 48 shots.
AlanChan
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by AlanChan »

IF your thinking is true, the US defense posture need a huge rework-forward deployed naval, air, marine unit must be pulled back and US army units should leave ROK.

And US force will not protect Japan and ROK targets until mainland China's unit is significantly soften up.

Current problem for US defense planners is that they are forced to protect some targets at point blank range (of missile range) with a enemy getting more and more units (translated to both fire power and staying power). And they are forced to split their force strategically (forward deployment) but concentrate their force locally in a few bases. That is not a so good decision.


ExNusquam
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by ExNusquam »

First, is how far out can you detect the incoming missiles? SM-3s can fly a long way in the game so somehow, to take full advantage of their enormous range, you need to figure out how to detect them a long way out. Longer detection range means more opportunities to take a shot.
This is one of my biggest issues with modeling the "ASBM vs CSG" scenarios. The US (and Russia) spent lots of money during the cold war developing the ability to detect missile launches. With the DSP and SBIRS constellation, somebody in the US will know about the missile launch basically as soon as it clears the launcher. The only question is how quickly does that information filter down to the relevant commanders.

There are a couple other sticking points on the discussion that I rarely see raised:
1. No ASM that has enountered a target employing active/passive countermeasures has ever hit it's target. You read that correctly. I currently think Command underestimates the effectiveness of EW. (Reference this paper, which was posted on the forum a few months ago) While missile seekers have become more advanced, EW capabilities have advanced along the same line. This graduate thesis lays out a good history of US Naval application of EW and deception against the USSR, and how similar techniques would complicate the PRCs ability to develop a firing solution.

2. There's evidence out there that the DF-21D employs a submunition warhead. In the leaked (or Released, considering it's availability) The Science of Second Artillery Campaigns the PRC lays out it's nuclear and conventional doctrine. It lists various attack strategies against a CSG, involving either light, harassing attacks, demonstration launches into the water, and possibly using EMP against C2 systems. The only strategy that mentions a direct attack on the CSG is the following:
Concentrated fire assault” (集火突击), which entails targeting the carrier
as a center of flight operations: “When many carrier-borne aircraft are used
in continuous air strikes against our coast, in order to halt the powerful air
raids, the enemy’s core carrier should be struck as with a ‘heavy hammer.’
The conventional missile forces should be a select group carrying sensitive
penetrating submunitions and, using the ‘concentrated firepower assault’
method, a wide-coverage strike against the enemy’s core carrier should be
executed, striving to destroy the enemy’s carrier-borne planes, the control
tower [island] and other easily damaged and vital positions.”

This has interesting implications for the US. For one, it means that the DF-21Ds CEP isn't as important, since the submunitions would spread out. It also gives the Chinese excellent escalation control; as they would mission kill the carrier with several hits, but likely wouldn't sink it or cause egregious loss of life.
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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

This has interesting implications for the US. For one, it means that the DF-21Ds CEP isn't as important, since the submunitions would spread out. It also gives the Chinese excellent escalation control; as they would mission kill the carrier with several hits, but likely wouldn't sink it or cause egregious loss of life.
But the US then can condemn China using WMD (sub-munition isn't just a main focus to cluster bombs), and will escalate much higher political and military measure than the single RV strike.
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AdmiralSteve
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by AdmiralSteve »

ORIGINAL: Dysta
ORIGINAL: Rudd

Say they had a 2000nm radius, and there is no blue land based aircraft support, how big would the strike package have to be to overwhelm a CVBG on the defense, with say half the air wing available on cap and a Tico and 2-3 Burkes with full typical VLS loadouts (these need to be added in CMANO)

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the cost would be crazy.
Indeed is crazy, but I am trying it right now. A full 7th fleet of:

-- A CVN-73
-- 7 AB2s
-- 2 Ticos
-- 1 Seawolf
-- 1 Virginia
-- 4 regiments of Hornets (half-ready)
-- 1 regiment of Growlers (half-ready)
-- Standard naval AEW and ASW packages
-- All default loadouts for ships
-- All Standard CAP for fighters

Versus

-- 48 DF-21D ASBMs (12 TELs)
-- Set Awareness to Omniscient

I am very certain that four salvo of DF-21Ds will not be enough.
I would doubt as well that a few battalions of ASBM's would be all that the PLAN/PLAAF used if they seriously considered taking a CVN out of action. A CVSG with a 2 CG/4 DDG mix will all be targets as it's the cruisers and destroyers that will have the SM-3's to eliminate the inbound ASBM threat. AEW, ECM and SEAD strikes even before launching the DF-21D's is an awful lot of hardware to hide.
I would imagine that a US and Chinese conflict would be weeks in the making. The US, South Korea, Japan, Australia and Russia all have AEW platforms and probably a few of them are up and hot at any one time, let alone the few OTH radars that are in the region as well just on a routine day.

If China were to put a 100 A/C in the air over Taiwan or the South China Sea, their would be so much radiation from Chinese radar and ECM suites that the eggs in my refrigerator in California would be cooked in three minutes.
“There are no extraordinary men...just extraordinary circumstances that ordinary men are forced to deal with.”
Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr. 1882-1959

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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

ORIGINAL: AdmSteebe

If China were to put a 100 A/C in the air over Taiwan or the South China Sea, their would be so much radiation from Chinese radar and ECM suites that the eggs in my refrigerator in California would be cooked in three minutes.
Does that mean ARM will becomes more effective and dangerous than other missiles?
ThornEel
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by ThornEel »

ORIGINAL: Aivlis

Please don't use Gravity as an indication for anything to do with orbital mechanics; it's a pretty and enjoyable film but has close to no relation to the real world in that regard.

Indeed, they did ... take liberties with orbital mechanics for film-making's sake - little things like putting Hubble on the same freaking orbital plane as the ISS, or the dreaded "point and burn" many fledgling Kerbal Space Program players learned to unlearn the hard way.
I thought about suggesting to at least play the free version of KSP to get an idea of orbital mechanics and why the X-37 would be unable to reach more than (optimistically) a few satellites before running out of propellant (if using chemical engines) or being a few months late (if using electric drive). After all, KSP probably taught orbital mechanics to more humans that everything else together.

Nevertheless, it shows pretty effectively what a Kessler cascade is, can happen and will do. A few details may be wrong, but the overall picture is correct.
The biggest flaw in their portrayal, in fact, is that debris would actually go so fast they wouldn't be visible, but again, film-making...

So, no way to model the loss of satellite networks on military capabilities in Command?
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Schr75
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Schr75 »

So, no way to model the loss of satellite networks on military capabilities in Command?

No, but please don´t use KSP as a source of real science.
If you want to learn about orbital mechanics this is where to go:

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/index.html

This is the real space sim.

S
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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

So far the solution for satellites and orbital vehicles is treating them as extremely high altitude of 'aerial unit'. Even there is no air, or the characteristics of gravitational orbiting, and treating like a 'nuclear-powered unit' which can turn course and reentering back to atmosphere without the use of fuel.
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by AdmiralSteve »

ORIGINAL: Dysta
ORIGINAL: AdmSteebe

If China were to put a 100 A/C in the air over Taiwan or the South China Sea, their would be so much radiation from Chinese radar and ECM suites that the eggs in my refrigerator in California would be cooked in three minutes.
Does that mean ARM will becomes more effective and dangerous than other missiles?
I think that if China was going to attack a US CSG, SEAD would be likely the first strike. And what good is a SEAD mission without ECM hampering one's early warning capabilities. Just think though if the CSG had 200+ SM-3 and SM-6 missiles that the PLAAF would have to put up a pretty good amount of A/C just to defeat the picket ships around the carrier. With that many A/C needed to attack the group, wouldn't Taiwan, South Korea and Japan detect the attack with their own AEW or surface ship radar let alone the 3 Hawkeye's that are on a carrier air wing?

I just don't see how it could happen on a large scale. Is it possible to "sneak in" a missile traveling at Mach 10?
“There are no extraordinary men...just extraordinary circumstances that ordinary men are forced to deal with.”
Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr. 1882-1959

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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

I mean if they keep their eyes (radars) on them, wouldn't they just 'stab' them with Anti-Radiation missiles? The more they put them on, the more dangerous themselves are.

Maybe ECM could put the trick, but nobody would disregard the incoming threat to evade or shut the radar down, even if ARM can be jammed.
AlmightyTallest
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by AlmightyTallest »

Well, for one when your going up against a force of well networked advanced systems, the use of ARM's isn't as threatening as it might first seem.

Each ship can use their radar in an intermittent setting, timing them so when one ship/aircraft/etc. stops emitting to prevent an ARM from hitting it, another ship/plane/etc. turns it's on to keep track of the threats.

Bonus if the arm's are not advanced and decide to maneuver to the new emitter, then back to the original, then to a 3rd one, each time expending fuel and losing the kinetic energy to possibly reach the target, which by the way is probably a maneuvering set of targets geographically spaced just to make it more interesting for the arms.

Don't forget false target emitters, deception repeaters and other decoys as well.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part11.htm


Warning, link below has enough math to kill a man...
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Navy%20handbook/EW_Radar_Handbook.pdf

http://www.google.com/patents/US6624780

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/slq32/
The SLQ-32(V) is the principal EW system carried by major US Navy surface ships, with more than 450 systems produced to date. The (V)1 and (V)2 suites are passive, providing early warning, identification and direction finding capability for simultaneous multiple threats. The (V)3 suite provides an additional active response for simultaneous jamming of multiple threats. The (V)4, an expanded version of the (V)3, is used on aircraft carriers. The (V)5, used on destroyers and frigates, integrates a passive (V)2 with an active jammer called "Sidekick." The SLQ-32(V) system has been in operation around the globe since the 1980s, and ongoing efforts to restore and upgrade older systems will extend the life of the SLQ-32(V) well into the 21st century.

The system achieves EW objectives by providing full threat band frequency coverage, instantaneous azimuth coverage, 100 percent probability of intercept and simultaneous response to multiple threats. It can detect aircraft search and target radars well before they detect the ship. The system's rapid response time ensures that jamming protection is enabled to prevent long range targeting of the ship and to deceive missiles launched against the ship. The system has an on-line library of emitter types for rapid identification.

Raytheon recently teamed with Lockheed Martin to compete for the U.S. Navy's Surface Electron Warfare Improvement Program (SEWIP) Block 3 program. SEWIP Block 3 will upgrade the fleet's capability to electronically attack anti-ship missiles with the AN/SLQ-32(V) electronic warfare system.
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Dysta
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by Dysta »

Ooooh, so is just make missiles 'dance', rather than actually spoofing and make it completely blind.

Well, someday we will see the obsolete ARM suddenly do the half loop and fly back toward the launcher. It'll be the most epic countermeasure.
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AdmiralSteve
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RE: Red Alert: The Growing Threat to U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

Post by AdmiralSteve »

ORIGINAL: Dysta

I mean if they keep their eyes (radars) on them, wouldn't they just 'stab' them with Anti-Radiation missiles? The more they put them on, the more dangerous themselves are.

Maybe ECM could put the trick, but nobody would disregard the incoming threat to evade or shut the radar down, even if ARM can be jammed.
And that's just the tactic that nobody knows (outside the carrier strike group) for sure. If you're a CSG with a carrier and 7 surface vessels, are you going to have all 7 with active radar or just the 3 Hawkeyes that may or may not be airborne? I would guess that the CSG would be established in such a way to have 1 or 2 CG's or DDG's as radar pickets with the CVN 150-200 miles away and all the other surface vessels set to passive EMCON's. The primary radar would have to be the E-2 Hawkeyes around 150NM from the carrier.
An anti-radiation missile is not a sure thing, just as ECM's may not always defeat an incoming missile. I've tried attacking a modern CSG in Command and I found that their would have to be so many Chinese aircraft airborne at one time to neutralize the radar picket ships and any E-2/E-3 AEW aircraft that someone, somewhere whether its Russian, Japan, South Korea or the US, would have to see the approaching wave.
I personally don't believe that the DF-21d is as much of a threat as it's made out to be in the press. It's not a one and done tool. So much else has to go into an attack before China even launches the ballistic anti-ship missile.
“There are no extraordinary men...just extraordinary circumstances that ordinary men are forced to deal with.”
Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr. 1882-1959

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