My friend recently sent me an article to read about how incredibly difficult it is too detect electric diesel over nuclear powered subs, which I found surprising since we have some of the best ASW assets in the world. I decided to game this out in the Command scenario "USN ASW Exercise 2006, and I found it too represent this fact very well, its been about two in-game days and I have only found one because it fired torpedoes and sunk one of my destroyers! Does anyone have any tips on finding these sneaky subs?
Thanks guys!
Diesel Submarines
Moderator: MOD_Command
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jtoatoktoe
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:38 pm
RE: Diesel Submarines
Well a Swedish Gotland Submarine and its crew was rented by the U.S. for almost 2 years and it wreaked havoc on everything it went up against.
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StellarRat
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:49 pm
RE: Diesel Submarines
They're not that fast and have limited endurance submerged. The best bet is to blanket the area with active sonar. Of course, that assumes you have some idea where they are. Other than that, just avoid their area of operations with surface vessels or nuclear subs.
RE: Diesel Submarines
Or, if you got a LCS to spare (or any fast, sonar installed ship) and a DDG that armed with RUMs, you can use the LCS as a bait, and rapidly turn course when hostile sub launched the torps. Eliminate the sub ASAP with RUMs so to cut off the wire guidance of torps.
But it is a riskier move, and only do that when it's a scenario's objective, or a sub is get in your way in a narrow channel.
But it is a riskier move, and only do that when it's a scenario's objective, or a sub is get in your way in a narrow channel.
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Rory Noonan
- Posts: 2418
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- Location: Brooklyn, NY
RE: Diesel Submarines
They're quiet, but they can't run on electric forever and they're also slow compared to nuclear boats. Ideally I'd try to find them with aircraft equipped with MAD and FLIR; dipping sonar would be a plus too. If this isn't possible I'd try to either draw them out by cruising at a speed that would both exhaust their batteries and force them to make noise to keep up, or creep along as slow as possible. Some surface ships can actually be pretty quiet at low speed (Perry class frigates with prairie masker for example). If you have good towed sonar you might hear them before they hear you. Aircraft is a much lower risk tactic though.
RE: Diesel Submarines
Modern, small tonnage of conventional sub's doctrine is rather stationary, and only perform defensive maneuver to keep it quiet and submerged for a long time. Fuel and magazine capacity are the secondaries.
Unlike the bigger counterpart like from Japan and China, they rely on bigger conventional subs because the lacks of nuclear subs (or acquired, but poorly capable) to perform direct attack for long range and duration, which is required more fuel and weapon loadout to do so.
Unlike the bigger counterpart like from Japan and China, they rely on bigger conventional subs because the lacks of nuclear subs (or acquired, but poorly capable) to perform direct attack for long range and duration, which is required more fuel and weapon loadout to do so.
RE: Diesel Submarines
In 2007 there was a lone South African SSK (Type 209/1400) that caused a bit of an upset against NATO during joint exercises.
http://mg.co.za/article/2007-09-04-sa-submarine-outwits-nato-force
GOD'S EYE DISABLED.
RE: Diesel Submarines
I usually look at the data of Passive VLF and active sonars' signature from DB3000, and realized some particular models, especially Type 212, are a living nightmare to modern surface and aerial ASW combatants.
They are both hauntingly silent (Compare to sea noise, Kilo was claimed to be the first that is quieter, but still a screamer compare to more advance western models later on), and not even a loud ding from active sonar can give out a positive result.
Sum up with the ability to stop the engine, unlike the nuclear reactor that is cannot be shut down in a middle of operation, it just get better.
They are both hauntingly silent (Compare to sea noise, Kilo was claimed to be the first that is quieter, but still a screamer compare to more advance western models later on), and not even a loud ding from active sonar can give out a positive result.
Sum up with the ability to stop the engine, unlike the nuclear reactor that is cannot be shut down in a middle of operation, it just get better.
RE: Diesel Submarines
It'd be nice if they were so easy to avoid, but the truth isn't always so simple. You're right, they can't move quickly and they have limited submerged endurance. The trick to using them successfully then is to put them in places you can't avoid going through. Choke points, for example, or to scatter them around the area you know to be in striking range of the things you're trying to protect.
ORIGINAL: StellarRat
They're not that fast and have limited endurance submerged. The best bet is to blanket the area with active sonar. Of course, that assumes you have some idea where they are. Other than that, just avoid their area of operations with surface vessels or nuclear subs.
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Raptorx7_slith
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:14 pm
RE: Diesel Submarines
Yeah my problem with this mission at least is that I only have a couple destroyers (1 burke, and 1 perry) I decided to split them up because I have to cover most of the eastern seaboard. The problem with doing that is that they are isolated, I tried to blanket that area with P-3's and the only MAD's I got were false contacts, which of course comes down to luck and bad mission planning on my part I suppose.
RE: Diesel Submarines
Which scenario are you playing with?
Have the P-3s search the area using both active and passive sonobuoys. MAD isn't a very good search sensor because it can't see very far.
Have the P-3s search the area using both active and passive sonobuoys. MAD isn't a very good search sensor because it can't see very far.
ORIGINAL: raptorx7
Yeah my problem with this mission at least is that I only have a couple destroyers (1 burke, and 1 perry) I decided to split them up because I have to cover most of the eastern seaboard. The problem with doing that is that they are isolated, I tried to blanket that area with P-3's and the only MAD's I got were false contacts, which of course comes down to luck and bad mission planning on my part I suppose.
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Raptorx7_slith
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:14 pm
RE: Diesel Submarines
ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
Which scenario are you playing with?
Have the P-3s search the area using both active and passive sonobuoys. MAD isn't a very good search sensor because it can't see very far.
ORIGINAL: raptorx7
Yeah my problem with this mission at least is that I only have a couple destroyers (1 burke, and 1 perry) I decided to split them up because I have to cover most of the eastern seaboard. The problem with doing that is that they are isolated, I tried to blanket that area with P-3's and the only MAD's I got were false contacts, which of course comes down to luck and bad mission planning on my part I suppose.
I am playing the scenario "USN ASW Exercise 2006", I believe my Orions are dropping both during there ASW patrol mission. I also made sure the Orions are flying at at least 1000FT so MAD has a better chance of detection.
RE: Diesel Submarines
I am playing the scenario "USN ASW Exercise 2006", I believe my Orions are dropping both during there ASW patrol mission. I also made sure the Orions are flying at at least 1000FT so MAD has a better chance of detection.
MAD is a very short range sensor, so the higher you fly, the shorter range it have and the shallower a sub can sail undetected.
You are better of flying as low as possible.
S
RE: Diesel Submarines
Conventional sub can be detected with MAD at approximately 1nm, sub with non-metallic hull at 0,5nm. This decreases with aircraft altitude - the higher you fly, the lower is detection range.
The conditions are heavily stacked against you - you are searching for ultra-quiet diesels, not only semi-quiet. In littorals you can't use towed arrays and sonars (especially long-range LF) are heavily afflicted by reverberation and waves. Actual detection range, even with shipboard sonar arrays, in these conditions is only a few nm.
The conditions are heavily stacked against you - you are searching for ultra-quiet diesels, not only semi-quiet. In littorals you can't use towed arrays and sonars (especially long-range LF) are heavily afflicted by reverberation and waves. Actual detection range, even with shipboard sonar arrays, in these conditions is only a few nm.
RE: Diesel Submarines
The overarching theme of this thread assumes that the goal is to have zero losses. Not letting the enemy subs take out any targets. That's simply not viable in this scenario, except by cheats or plain luck.
Count how many clusters of neutral ships there are. Then count how many asw assets you have available. Even if you could have 100% uptime from them, they would not be enough.
The win condition in any ASW scenario should be to prevent the enemy subs from accomplishing their objective.
Then it's just a matter of defining what that objective is. This is why missiles on subs is such a big deal - their location requirements are quite relaxed.
In the backstory of the mission being discussed, the enemy objective is to pressure the US negotiators by threatening civilian traffic. If they lose their subs after doing so, that pressure is relieved afterwards. The dead are already dead. And their killing would be something the US negotiators could pressure them with (war crimes by those who gave the orders?).
In other words, think in terms of why you would not want to be the sub captain doing this for real.
Fear is not a factor in enemy behavior in command.
Command is thus a lot about how to follow through with the threats that keep soldiers/sailors/aviators from doing something in real war.
That train of thought leads to the following plan:
- Throughout this, you may get lucky. Don't waste luck - but don't drop everything else on what may be a false contact.
- The enemies are armed with anti-ship missiles. Keep your AEW up.
- Place a couple passive buoys near (preferrably in front of) each objective (ship you want to protect).
With their wide spread, MPAs will be well suited for doing this to most objectives.
These are not likely to pick up subs. What you aim to detect is not the sub, but torpedoes.
- When you detect a weapon launch, mark the datum. With time. Send your ASW assets.
- When they arrive, look at how many hours it took them, and multiply by the kilo's max speed of 20. This is your search radius. Start from the outside, circling inwards with active buoys.
(If it took 30 minutes = 0.5 hours, then the radius is 10nm)
- Make sure that the sub dies for what it did. Show why this is a bad idea in real life. Because they'd die afterwards.
A few notes:
- At some point towards the end of the scenario, remaining enemy subs may start snorkeling. Having some light coverage of passive buoys around the area may be useful.
- If you don't need a buoy monitor up high, consider loitering low to possibly get a MAD detection. But do loiter - you want the uptime.
- You can find yourself a 'high-value target' or two and try to actively protect them. A Cruise liner, perhaps?
- The surface ships can be standoff helo platforms, deep helo platforms, or combatants. The carrier is basically a standoff helo platform by default.
The deep helo platform wants to be in there, but wants to be undetected.
The combatant wants action. It could be a close escort for some objective.
The FFG has neither asrocs or air defense against their missiles, so it's not qualified for the combatant role. What it does have, is space for two helicopters.
- Consider having at least one helicopter at each ship on an asw strike mission - on standby on the pad until a goblin shows up.
----
Since the topic is 'diesel subs' in general I thought I'd add another trick to the discussion.
In a scenario where
- enemy torpedo subs are trying to hit your ships
- the enemy can track your ships' locations
then you want to use high speed. The geometry shows that they need to have a proportional increase in speed to do the intercepts.
Then, change your course every now and then. Depending on the situation, in particular their torpedo range, but a minimum of 20 minutes between each turn (for this purpose).
This will waste some of the intercept effort they've already put in, whether it was too much or too little. The greater the change of direction, the greater the effect.
Against a human, you also have to keep from being predictable.
This basically reduces them to manned, wide area mines.
If you're traveling at their max speed, they have to be in the front 90 degree cone along your path of travel to be able to do an intercept. If you go faster, that area tightens.
Once they're outside of that cone, they will not be able to accomplish their mission, which should be your win.
The drawback is that you're louder (they were tracking you anyway?), deafer (the difference between 0.5nm and 0nm detection range?), and even more dependent on your airborne ASW assets. And when that matters, it takes more fuel too.
Count how many clusters of neutral ships there are. Then count how many asw assets you have available. Even if you could have 100% uptime from them, they would not be enough.
The win condition in any ASW scenario should be to prevent the enemy subs from accomplishing their objective.
Then it's just a matter of defining what that objective is. This is why missiles on subs is such a big deal - their location requirements are quite relaxed.
In the backstory of the mission being discussed, the enemy objective is to pressure the US negotiators by threatening civilian traffic. If they lose their subs after doing so, that pressure is relieved afterwards. The dead are already dead. And their killing would be something the US negotiators could pressure them with (war crimes by those who gave the orders?).
In other words, think in terms of why you would not want to be the sub captain doing this for real.
Fear is not a factor in enemy behavior in command.
Command is thus a lot about how to follow through with the threats that keep soldiers/sailors/aviators from doing something in real war.
That train of thought leads to the following plan:
- Throughout this, you may get lucky. Don't waste luck - but don't drop everything else on what may be a false contact.
- The enemies are armed with anti-ship missiles. Keep your AEW up.
- Place a couple passive buoys near (preferrably in front of) each objective (ship you want to protect).
With their wide spread, MPAs will be well suited for doing this to most objectives.
These are not likely to pick up subs. What you aim to detect is not the sub, but torpedoes.
- When you detect a weapon launch, mark the datum. With time. Send your ASW assets.
- When they arrive, look at how many hours it took them, and multiply by the kilo's max speed of 20. This is your search radius. Start from the outside, circling inwards with active buoys.
(If it took 30 minutes = 0.5 hours, then the radius is 10nm)
- Make sure that the sub dies for what it did. Show why this is a bad idea in real life. Because they'd die afterwards.
A few notes:
- At some point towards the end of the scenario, remaining enemy subs may start snorkeling. Having some light coverage of passive buoys around the area may be useful.
- If you don't need a buoy monitor up high, consider loitering low to possibly get a MAD detection. But do loiter - you want the uptime.
- You can find yourself a 'high-value target' or two and try to actively protect them. A Cruise liner, perhaps?
- The surface ships can be standoff helo platforms, deep helo platforms, or combatants. The carrier is basically a standoff helo platform by default.
The deep helo platform wants to be in there, but wants to be undetected.
The combatant wants action. It could be a close escort for some objective.
The FFG has neither asrocs or air defense against their missiles, so it's not qualified for the combatant role. What it does have, is space for two helicopters.
- Consider having at least one helicopter at each ship on an asw strike mission - on standby on the pad until a goblin shows up.
----
Since the topic is 'diesel subs' in general I thought I'd add another trick to the discussion.
In a scenario where
- enemy torpedo subs are trying to hit your ships
- the enemy can track your ships' locations
then you want to use high speed. The geometry shows that they need to have a proportional increase in speed to do the intercepts.
Then, change your course every now and then. Depending on the situation, in particular their torpedo range, but a minimum of 20 minutes between each turn (for this purpose).
This will waste some of the intercept effort they've already put in, whether it was too much or too little. The greater the change of direction, the greater the effect.
Against a human, you also have to keep from being predictable.
This basically reduces them to manned, wide area mines.
If you're traveling at their max speed, they have to be in the front 90 degree cone along your path of travel to be able to do an intercept. If you go faster, that area tightens.
Once they're outside of that cone, they will not be able to accomplish their mission, which should be your win.
The drawback is that you're louder (they were tracking you anyway?), deafer (the difference between 0.5nm and 0nm detection range?), and even more dependent on your airborne ASW assets. And when that matters, it takes more fuel too.
RE: Diesel Submarines
Also, I wouldn't use surface vessels in an offensive role against a submarine. They're too vulnerable. Let the MPA and helos do the hunting because a submarine can't really hurt them. Keep the surface vessels close to the carrier so they can protect it. Keep at least one AWACs aircraft up to spot ASCMs way out and possibly cue the aircraft. Hopefully that will help.
RE: Diesel Submarines
My exact plan.ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
Also, I wouldn't use surface vessels in an offensive role against a submarine. They're too vulnerable. Let the MPA and helos do the hunting because a submarine can't really hurt them. Keep the surface vessels close to the carrier so they can protect it. Keep at least one AWACs aircraft up to spot ASCMs way out and possibly cue the aircraft. Hopefully that will help.
Though some late-2000s are too ghostly quiet, especially Type-212. If it isn't have engine on all the time except battery and less then 5 knots, a week of ASW search might not even able to find it.
RE: Diesel Submarines
Was now sure where to post this rather dry conference by the AEI on subs in the Pacific from 2 years ago which is related to subs in general so why not here. It's right in the wheel house of the community.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wI8qtPnfCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wI8qtPnfCY
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
Alfred Thayer Mahan
Alfred Thayer Mahan
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strykerpsg
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:02 am
RE: Diesel Submarines
ORIGINAL: apache85
They're quiet, but they can't run on electric forever and they're also slow compared to nuclear boats.
Doesn't AIP change that statement quite a bit? With the ability to generate one's own oxygen supply and power it's electric motors, I think that would be a huge game changer, not having to snorkel or surface for a very long time. Then, factor in the quietness of the newer generation of diesel/electrics and you have a potential nightmare of how far behind many nations are regarding finding and tracking these assets. I think the biggest mistake the US made was dropping the Viking for the Seahawk. Totally took away the longer ranged ability to put up an outer screen of protection and also lost the rapid ability to transit to a ASCM launch area if detected by an airborne AWACS platform.
I know there's much workload put onto shore based ASW assets, but a CV-22 based ASW bird would be a great compromise and possibly bring the longer range detectability and/or area denial by any sub, more credible.
Anyway, I often add the hypothetical CV-22 ASW all the time and in my opinion, they are often game changers to the scenario.
RE: Diesel Submarines
AIP does have a limit, depends on the type. Mostly are required to operate above the sea level because of the water pressure. It will be easily detectable when the sub is shallow, and AIP generate noise too.