Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[tiemanjw]

Over time I have lessened my use of CV air to ASW as the DL they offer the enemy is as bad or worse than the sub-finding they (may) do. If I use them I usually restrict to 1 hex in transits.

The manual is quite explicit on the sequence of events in a turn. (skipping the irrelevant steps) first is the night move phase, then night search, than day move, than am search, than pm search.

So all those CV a/c are useless for ASW work if you are moving at cruise speed or faster.
A typical CVTF will go about 5 hexes/ phase. TBFs have a max range of 8 I think withoit DTs (can't look right now - the game date is too early for DTs on TBFs I think as well). ASW divides the range by 2. A sub between 5 -10 hexes won't be seen and can attack without previous detection. A sub at 4 hexes is at the edge of your range.

I don't like it either, but ASW sourced from a moving platform is useless for protection. A thousand TBFs wouldn't make a difference here because they don't do anything until after you move.

ASW is for offensive operations against subs, not defensive ones.

Boost your search. A lot. Especially once you get DTs and you can search out past where you will next move. Use a lot of night search too. My personal experience disagrees with Loki... I see subs all the time with search alone. I even get plenty of attacks and claimed hits on them. The amount of A/C I dedicate to search dwarfs yours, and a lot of it is at night. Of course it is easier in '44 to dedicate more search...but it is also easier if you stop wasting airframes (and pilot training) on ASW.
Which is one more point...what skill level is your navs? It is hard to get pilots trained up to 70 Navs plus asw (plus navt and or navb)

[MrKane]

Personally I am using directed forward night search to anti-subs protection. Sub hunting is different story. Actually the best results I am getting with dive bombers used at mass. Standard is 50% ASW 50% SEARCH for each squadron on each carrier. In case of USN carriers it gives 41 planes looking for subs around for each flattop. Result is usually clean ocean in 1 or 2 turn with 2 - 5 sunk all other heading port to fix damage.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Over time I have lessened my use of CV air to ASW as the DL they offer the enemy is as bad or worse than the sub-finding they (may) do. If I use them I usually restrict to 1 hex in transits.

The manual is quite explicit on the sequence of events in a turn. (skipping the irrelevant steps) first is the night move phase, then night search, than day move, than am search, than pm search.

So all those CV a/c are useless for ASW work if you are moving at cruise speed or faster.
A typical CVTF will go about 5 hexes/ phase. TBFs have a max range of 8 I think withoit DTs (can't look right now - the game date is too early for DTs on TBFs I think as well). ASW divides the range by 2. A sub between 5 -10 hexes won't be seen and can attack without previous detection. A sub at 4 hexes is at the edge of your range.

I don't like it either, but ASW sourced from a moving platform is useless for protection. A thousand TBFs wouldn't make a difference here because they don't do anything until after you move.

ASW is for offensive operations against subs, not defensive ones.

Boost your search. A lot. Especially once you get DTs and you can search out past where you will next move. Use a lot of night search too. My personal experience disagrees with Loki... I see subs all the time with search alone. I even get plenty of attacks and claimed hits on them. The amount of A/C I dedicate to search dwarfs yours, and a lot of it is at night. Of course it is easier in '44 to dedicate more search...but it is also easier if you stop wasting airframes (and pilot training) on ASW.
Which is one more point...what skill level is your navs? It is hard to get pilots trained up to 70 Navs plus asw (plus navt and or navb)

You can never get all pilots cross trained in four skills, but for my KB TB pilots about 3/4 have 70 in naval bombing, search, TT and ASW to at least 60. I train them in LBA forward areas areas when not in use, where the rear areas train newbies to 70 TT and 70 search. It all depends too on how many groups you want to commit to training. Some don't train to 50EXP but only go to 40 and let them "earn" the EXP. KB pilots tough are usually 70-85EXP with a few in the 60s.

The CV capable recon groups can also do extended (15-20 hex) search for both sides. The IJN though gets FP that can do extended search or ASW fairly early. The Norm should go to 7-8 hexes for ASW.

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Personally I am using directed forward night search to anti-subs protection. Sub hunting is different story. Actually the best results I am getting with dive bombers used at mass. Standard is 50% ASW 50% SEARCH for each squadron on each carrier. In case of USN carriers it gives 41 planes looking for subs around for each flattop. Result is usually clean ocean in 1 or 2 turn with 2 - 5 sunk all other heading port to fix damage.

This seems effective because if you see them with search they will have less chance to escape escorts in the next phase and ASW planes will have a greater chance to then kill them. That's got to wear down your planes quickly though and kill a good few pilots in ops losses.

[JocMeister]

Thanks for the advice guys! And welcome back Tom! Good to see you online again! [&o]

I´ve decided to put the AAR in a bit of a hibernation mode for a while. I know myself enough to know I get hit with these motivational downs from time to time. They usually coincide with too much IRL stuff and/or other games and it will come back eventually. But for now I think I need a break from the AAR as I don´t feel I have to motivation or time to keep up a decent standard. Looking back at the last few month the quality and frequency have dropped below what I feel is acceptable. The game will continue though and you can surely follow it in Jeffs AAR. [:)]

I will surely drop the occasional update if something interesting happens but there wont be regular updates for a while. I probably wont be very active on the forum either but I´ll try and keep reading the few AARs I still follow. So pretty much the same as it has been for the last 6 months or so [:)]

If anyone misses me terribly drop me a PM or find me on WoTs EU servers under the same nick I use here!

Cheers guys!

[Canoerebel]

Jocke, don't do it! The number of "paired" AARs (from both sides) is pretty limited. They are awfully fun to read. The match between you and Lowpe is an interesting one. It's great for all of us in the Peanut Gallery to follow the game from both perspectrives.

So grab a drink, get a good night's sleep or two, recover your equilibrium, and then resume with a vengeance.

[:)]

[tiemanjw]

You can never get all pilots cross trained in four skills, but for my KB TB pilots about 3/4 have 70 in naval bombing, search, TT and ASW to at least 60. I train them in LBA forward areas areas when not in use, where the rear areas train newbies to 70 TT and 70 search. It all depends too on how many groups you want to commit to training. Some don't train to 50EXP but only go to 40 and let them "earn" the EXP. KB pilots tough are usually 70-85EXP with a few in the 60s.

When you give a pilot (or rather, an airgroup) an experience level in the editor he "acquires" skills based on the airframe type. Set 75 exp for a Kate group and they get good navb, tt, search and a few other skills. What I was referring to was training. USN pilots come in with high (for rookie pilots) skills...low to mid 30s I think. That means you only get a bot 15-20 exp points until they hit the magic 50 number and training slows drastically. You can reasonably get 2 skills trained up to near 70 before training slows drastically. So as I see it, once you get to that point you have 2 options:
1) keep training additional skill(s) which has a huge opportunity cost (each pilot past 50 exp or 70 skill training is more than 1 rookie not getting up to that level)
2) throwing them into the frey at less than optimal skill at all but 2 skills

Most of us choose option 2, including myself. But the money question is which 2 skills do I choose? My guess is that jockie is using (at least some) pilots with a search mission (or asw) with less than 70 skill. Perhaps some of us with different experiences with IJN subs have so because of higher navs pilots. I can only speak for myself, but all my search pilots have 70+ skill, and I focus on navs as my second skill for navy bombers (at the cost of navb skill for tt pilots).

KB pilots are in a different class. They were set their skills in the editor, and thus are better than any pilots you can train in the game. Replacement IJN pilots start with a lower skill, and can this train more skill before "topping out" (though not having played them, I don't know by how much). You say you throw IJN pilots into the frey at 40 exp after having some skills. A USN pilot at 40 exp has one skill approaching 60 and nothing else.

[Lokasenna]

You can do better with Japanese pilots, if you start pulling from the schools instead of the replacement pool. The lower starting experience means you can get them skilled in more things. You're fine with a recon skill in the single digits for your TB pilots, for example. It does take more total time to train, though.

You can sort of do the same thing with the Allies if you burn through a lot of your replacement pool, and then drop them all into general reserve while pulling the least experienced out of there. It actually behooves you to do this early on as I believe the quality of replacement pilots increases throughout the war for the Allies. I know in 1945 I was pulling in guys with Exp around 40 due to the average of 35. Earlier in the war, I think it was 30? Or maybe I'm making all that up.

[witpqs]

I know myself enough to know I get hit with these motivational downs from time to time.

When you give into those things they get worse. Fight through it.

[tiemanjw]

I think the manual has a table (on my phone right now, so I can't look it up) with the exp for different pilot pools. It may contain a year variable, but I don't recall. The different "nationalities" that make up the allies (usa,usn,usmc,brit,aussi,etc) all have different starting experience. USN is one of the highest, and so it is hard to train them up in more than 1 and a half skills. USA is a bit lower,as is USMC.

I haven't thought about it before writing that last post, but perhaps the allies can pull from tracom? Are they the real green guys, or are they the 80+ guys you stash away? I never stash away 80+ guys (as the allies, I'm never short on graduating pilots) so I never used that selection when pulling in pilots.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Over time I have lessened my use of CV air to ASW as the DL they offer the enemy is as bad or worse than the sub-finding they (may) do. If I use them I usually restrict to 1 hex in transits.

The manual is quite explicit on the sequence of events in a turn. (skipping the irrelevant steps) first is the night move phase, then night search, than day move, than am search, than pm search.

So all those CV a/c are useless for ASW work if you are moving at cruise speed or faster.
A typical CVTF will go about 5 hexes/ phase. TBFs have a max range of 8 I think withoit DTs (can't look right now - the game date is too early for DTs on TBFs I think as well). ASW divides the range by 2. A sub between 5 -10 hexes won't be seen and can attack without previous detection. A sub at 4 hexes is at the edge of your range.

I don't like it either, but ASW sourced from a moving platform is useless for protection. A thousand TBFs wouldn't make a difference here because they don't do anything until after you move.

ASW is for offensive operations against subs, not defensive ones.

Which would be a nice theory if the move was done in a chunk. It isn't. It's done hex-by-hex with attack checks in each hex. So if I get a 10/10 on a sub on PM search, it's probably still there on my next, first-hex move toward it. And my ASW ships know that. Granted, no help on today's turn. But I can look over the hedge at tomorrow's first hex. Or next four hexes if I want to expose myself.

Also, the main reason to me to not search is because a human brain, not code, is seeing the DL imposed on the sub by my planes at whatever portion of the turn they fly. And that human brain who owns that sub knows there a platform of some kind that saw it. If it's in a location where LBA search is impossible or unlikely, and Allied subs carry no Glens, most likely it's mobile air ASW. Which that human files away and plans around for tomorrow.

[poodlebrain]

Common sense dictates that if you have detected subs in your vicinity you will be more vigilant in looking for subs on your intended path, and not too worried about being run down from behind or the flanks. In order to have your aircraft apply this common sense you have to manually plot the search arc of your carrier planes.

[tiemanjw]

Which would be a nice theory if the move was done in a chunk. It isn't. It's done hex-by-hex with attack checks in each hex. So if I get a 10/10 on a sub on PM search, it's probably still there on my next, first-hex move toward it. And my ASW ships know that. Granted, no help on today's turn. But I can look over the hedge at tomorrow's first hex. Or next four hexes if I want to expose myself.

true, perhaps I overstated. Yes, you will "see" subs in the next 4 hexes, and can act accordingly. The manual does state that "prior detection of the sub" influences the probability of an attack (so I assume that means the sub TFs MDL, as DL resets to 0 prior to the naval move phase), so it isn't "worthless" from a game point of view either (your escorts "know" he is there). My point was though, that just having TBFs out searching / ASWing doesn't buy you a bubble of protection. They are not factored into "escorts" in any way. Once you outrun the "search" they did on the previous turn, they are not providing any protection. In this case we don't know how far Wasp traveled prior to getting attacked, so we don't know if it is relevant in this particular case. Most CVTFs can move 10 hexes in a turn, but ASW can be out to a max of 4 (with that 4th hex being extended range).
Also, if he just left port in the last turn (for example, exiting Sydney (or Pearl, west coast, whatever in other cases) - most of us set up the search functions and leave port. If this is the case, that search never flew, and was a complete non factor (no matter how many were set)

Also, the main reason to me to not search is because a human brain, not code, is seeing the DL imposed on the sub by my planes at whatever portion of the turn they fly. And that human brain who owns that sub knows there a platform of some kind that saw it. If it's in a location where LBA search is impossible or unlikely, and Allied subs carry no Glens, most likely it's mobile air ASW. Which that human files away and plans around for tomorrow

I fully agree with you here, but I think it is outside the scope of what I was originally saying. Yes, the implications of getting a search A/C spotted could be huge (or you may not care, depending on the game situation).

[4eyedoracle]

I had to come out of hiding just to try to prevent you from quitting your AAR. I´ve followed your AARs since 2-3 years now, always a good read. I would hate to see it stop.

Also: Vaffan Jocke, du kan väl inte låta japsen vinna? Ta älgen vid hornen och visa att svenskt stål biter!

/Calle

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Which would be a nice theory if the move was done in a chunk. It isn't. It's done hex-by-hex with attack checks in each hex. So if I get a 10/10 on a sub on PM search, it's probably still there on my next, first-hex move toward it. And my ASW ships know that. Granted, no help on today's turn. But I can look over the hedge at tomorrow's first hex. Or next four hexes if I want to expose myself.

true, perhaps I overstated. Yes, you will "see" subs in the next 4 hexes, and can act accordingly. The manual does state that "prior detection of the sub" influences the probability of an attack (so I assume that means the sub TFs MDL, as DL resets to 0 prior to the naval move phase), so it isn't "worthless" from a game point of view either (your escorts "know" he is there). My point was though, that just having TBFs out searching / ASWing doesn't buy you a bubble of protection. They are not factored into "escorts" in any way. Once you outrun the "search" they did on the previous turn, they are not providing any protection. In this case we don't know how far Wasp traveled prior to getting attacked, so we don't know if it is relevant in this particular case. Most CVTFs can move 10 hexes in a turn, but ASW can be out to a max of 4 (with that 4th hex being extended range).
Also, if he just left port in the last turn (for example, exiting Sydney (or Pearl, west coast, whatever in other cases) - most of us set up the search functions and leave port. If this is the case, that search never flew, and was a complete non factor (no matter how many were set)

Also, the main reason to me to not search is because a human brain, not code, is seeing the DL imposed on the sub by my planes at whatever portion of the turn they fly. And that human brain who owns that sub knows there a platform of some kind that saw it. If it's in a location where LBA search is impossible or unlikely, and Allied subs carry no Glens, most likely it's mobile air ASW. Which that human files away and plans around for tomorrow

I fully agree with you here, but I think it is outside the scope of what I was originally saying. Yes, the implications of getting a search A/C spotted could be huge (or you may not care, depending on the game situation).

I think MDL is the key, and I confess I have never quite understood how it's baked into next turns. Without it, naval search in all cases is pretty worthless, except night search for day attacks. And night search is weak tea.

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Which would be a nice theory if the move was done in a chunk. It isn't. It's done hex-by-hex with attack checks in each hex. So if I get a 10/10 on a sub on PM search, it's probably still there on my next, first-hex move toward it. And my ASW ships know that. Granted, no help on today's turn. But I can look over the hedge at tomorrow's first hex. Or next four hexes if I want to expose myself.

true, perhaps I overstated. Yes, you will "see" subs in the next 4 hexes, and can act accordingly. The manual does state that "prior detection of the sub" influences the probability of an attack (so I assume that means the sub TFs MDL, as DL resets to 0 prior to the naval move phase), so it isn't "worthless" from a game point of view either (your escorts "know" he is there). My point was though, that just having TBFs out searching / ASWing doesn't buy you a bubble of protection. They are not factored into "escorts" in any way. Once you outrun the "search" they did on the previous turn, they are not providing any protection. In this case we don't know how far Wasp traveled prior to getting attacked, so we don't know if it is relevant in this particular case. Most CVTFs can move 10 hexes in a turn, but ASW can be out to a max of 4 (with that 4th hex being extended range).
Also, if he just left port in the last turn (for example, exiting Sydney (or Pearl, west coast, whatever in other cases) - most of us set up the search functions and leave port. If this is the case, that search never flew, and was a complete non factor (no matter how many were set)

Also, the main reason to me to not search is because a human brain, not code, is seeing the DL imposed on the sub by my planes at whatever portion of the turn they fly. And that human brain who owns that sub knows there a platform of some kind that saw it. If it's in a location where LBA search is impossible or unlikely, and Allied subs carry no Glens, most likely it's mobile air ASW. Which that human files away and plans around for tomorrow

I fully agree with you here, but I think it is outside the scope of what I was originally saying. Yes, the implications of getting a search A/C spotted could be huge (or you may not care, depending on the game situation).

If what you say is correct, then what is the purpose, or point, of a CV Escort TF? The area of prosecution for such a TF must move with the TF in order for the TF and mission to make any sense.

[Brutus]

ORIGINAL: 4eyedoracle

I had to come out of hiding just to try to prevent you from quitting your AAR. I´ve followed your AARs since 2-3 years now, always a good read. I would hate to see it stop.

I fully subscribe to this plea. I never played and probably never will play WitP, but I love to follow your game and both related AARs [:)]

[witpqs]

This is so much fun, I wish Joc were here!

[tiemanjw]

I think MDL is the key, and I confess I have never quite understood how it's baked into next turns. Without it, naval search in all cases is pretty worthless, except night search for day attacks. And night search is weak tea.

search happens before the air strike phase, so by using search, you can get a high DL for the same attack phase. Given that DL resets prior to the naval move, you can double dip to get a very high DL for the afternoon strike phase. Night search will still reset the DL to 0 prior to the day movement phase.
A higher MDL will make it easier to get a higher DL (I think, I'm not exactly clear on this).

For subs, the manual explicitly states "prior detection of sub" when listing factors affecting an attack. I read that as MDL. Given the sequence of the turn, it would be the only one to make sense. And I do see more "ASW attacks" and attacks on escorts where I have a lot of air search. I'll have to look over my saved sub attack data again... maybe some insights there.

[tiemanjw]

If what you say is correct, then what is the purpose, or point, of a CV Escort TF? The area of prosecution for such a TF must move with the TF in order for the TF and mission to make any sense.

This kind of is my point. Honestly, I never bother using CV escort TFs to hunt subs (not saying I never would, just that I haven't to date). I use CV Escort TFs to provide CAP (and NavS along with light naval strike) to amphibs. CV Escort TFs don't suffer from the 1/2 penalty when in a base hex. They do a great job protecting amphibs.

The area of prosecution does not move with the TF though. It warps from the TF location the previous turn to the current location. If you want to use these guys to attack subs, that is all well and good. Just understand that the ASW setting for A/C is providing no protection for you once you outrun their range (4 hexes max without DTs, 5 (I think) with DTs).
If I were to go hunt subs in the open ocean I would send a air TF with CVEs with TBFs / SBDs. Use DTs. The bulk would be on "search" (about 1/3 night, 2/3 day low altitude (not sure if makes a difference)). Several 3 ship ASW TFs would ride along scattered around in front. These are the killers. If I had extra space, extra airframes, and extra pilots who happen to have good ASW skill, I'd throw on an ASW group. But remember, they will only go out to kill subs once the ship has stopped for the day.

[catwhoorg]

CVE are also for amphibs in my books.