Hi,
I have a sub right under the layer, camping there with speed zero. Still suddenly I have an enemy torpedo inbound. There were no indications of sensors in my vicinity before. Leaves me with two questions:
How did they pick me up with passive sonar when I am floating in water with cut engines?
In case they sensed me with active sonar, why wasn't there any indication of some emitting contact nearby? I guess my sub's passive sonar should be well able to sense incoming active sonar emissions before my reflections become strong enough to be noticed by the emitting enemy.
"How not to be seen" as a submarine
Moderator: MOD_Command
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
I think you have to post a savegame...
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug. Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
MAD can detect even a stationary submarine. Of course, save would be helpful, to check the opponent's ASW assets.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Besides that I don't have a save of that situation, it wouldn't help for answering the thread title.
"How not to be seen" as a submarine?
I am looking for general advice for that topic. My described situation was an example, not a single situation to be questioned by me.
How do we avoid detection best, while conducting some patrol with a sub?
Passive sonar, active sonar and MAD being our enemies, how do we fool them effectively?
"How not to be seen" as a submarine?
I am looking for general advice for that topic. My described situation was an example, not a single situation to be questioned by me.
How do we avoid detection best, while conducting some patrol with a sub?
Passive sonar, active sonar and MAD being our enemies, how do we fool them effectively?
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?
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Rory Noonan
- Posts: 2418
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- Location: Brooklyn, NY
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
It's heavily dependent on the capabilities of the submarine and any ASW assets. Distance is important, and depth factors into that. Particularly for nuc boats, and to a lesser extent for diesel boats, the sub still makes noise when sitting still. The reactor and other machinery count towards this, as do 'transients' like a dropped wrench (or 45 cents). A good passive set can pick up even a quiet boat given a close enough range.
Beyond that, it's advantageous to know your enemy: surface ships with VDS/towed arrays will be looking below the layer with their best sonar. In that case you will be better off above the layer, up against the (usually less capable) hull sonar.
As for active sonar, if you get close enough it will see you. Stay well away, and on the opposite side of the layer.
MAD is tricky. I've tested it, and the closer you are to the surface, the larger the detection zone is--so stay deep to hide from MAD equipped aircraft.
At the end of the day, it is also useful to realise that submarines are sometimes better used as ISR platforms. Sending a sub in against a strong surface group with adequate ASW assets is probably just going to lose you a sub. Using the same sub to detect, classify and track the same surface group and vector ofher resources for a combined attack is likely a much more effective solution.
Beyond that, it's advantageous to know your enemy: surface ships with VDS/towed arrays will be looking below the layer with their best sonar. In that case you will be better off above the layer, up against the (usually less capable) hull sonar.
As for active sonar, if you get close enough it will see you. Stay well away, and on the opposite side of the layer.
MAD is tricky. I've tested it, and the closer you are to the surface, the larger the detection zone is--so stay deep to hide from MAD equipped aircraft.
At the end of the day, it is also useful to realise that submarines are sometimes better used as ISR platforms. Sending a sub in against a strong surface group with adequate ASW assets is probably just going to lose you a sub. Using the same sub to detect, classify and track the same surface group and vector ofher resources for a combined attack is likely a much more effective solution.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
ORIGINAL: thewood1
But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?
Actually the original post did not mention anything about bug. And his other post did not say he suspected a bug, rather just saying he would post a save game if he suspects a bug.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Hey apache, thanks for the ISR comment, makes absolute sense, but so far it didn't come up in my mind.
Regarding MAD, I noticed a soviet Il-38 detecting my Sturgeon class SSN in a depth of 1k feet. That is a decent range. Real life values are hard to find in the internet, only thing I found was an approximate 500 meters slant range for a "typical" MAD device, I think it was at fas.org
I guess I underestimated the capabilities of MAD before, also taking into account that a modern MPA like the P-8 Poseidon wasn't equipped with MAD at all anymore.
Regarding MAD, I noticed a soviet Il-38 detecting my Sturgeon class SSN in a depth of 1k feet. That is a decent range. Real life values are hard to find in the internet, only thing I found was an approximate 500 meters slant range for a "typical" MAD device, I think it was at fas.org
I guess I underestimated the capabilities of MAD before, also taking into account that a modern MPA like the P-8 Poseidon wasn't equipped with MAD at all anymore.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
ORIGINAL: tipsypo
ORIGINAL: thewood1
But you said you suspect a bug. It would have been good to see what was up?
Actually the original post did not mention anything about bug. And his other post did not say he suspected a bug, rather just saying he would post a save game if he suspects a bug.
I didn't say his original post...He stated he thought it was a bug. Did I say "in his original post"?
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
ORIGINAL: Rongor
I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug.Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.
No you didn't. He did not say believe it to be a bug either though. The above I read as he will post if he believes it to be a bug, but at moment does not believe so. And was just pointing that neither does the original post say anything about a bug. But calm down was no attack upon you.
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Rory Noonan
- Posts: 2418
- Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:53 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
ORIGINAL: Rongor
Hey apache, thanks for the ISR comment, makes absolute sense, but so far it didn't come up in my mind.
Regarding MAD, I noticed a soviet Il-38 detecting my Sturgeon class SSN in a depth of 1k feet. That is a decent range. Real life values are hard to find in the internet, only thing I found was an approximate 500 meters slant range for a "typical" MAD device, I think it was at fas.org
I guess I underestimated the capabilities of MAD before, also taking into account that a modern MPA like the P-8 Poseidon wasn't equipped with MAD at all anymore.
That's pretty consistent with my observations. Thankfully, the deeper you are the closer they have to be to get a MAD contact. You also have the potential to be detected by MAD and avoid classification/tracking by other means, giving you the chance to slip away (enemy ROE permitting).
As a human player, MAD is the business. Getting a MAD hit means you've got the exact location of a probable sub (especially if it moves).
I can only imagine the P-8's lack of a MAD is due to some amazing new sonobouy or other sensor. Or it could be the likely poor performance of having a 737 type aircraft flying slowly at <1000ft for extended periods. I do remember that India (I think) has initiated on MADs for their ordered P-8s.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Save game would tell the story. Ping us if any real comes out of this. We'll gladly help.
Mike
Mike
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wild_Willie2
- Posts: 2934
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
As far as I have heard there where two mayor considerations why the USN P8's do not have a MAD capability:
The range of these MAD sensors was so limited v. the capability of modern subs to dive to great depths, that the USN no longer considers them a cost effective sensor. Also, the P8 was designed to perform ASW work from 30K feet, so at its operating altitude MAD would be useless anyway. There are however reports of an MAD equipped drone being especially developed by BAE for P8 use..
The range of these MAD sensors was so limited v. the capability of modern subs to dive to great depths, that the USN no longer considers them a cost effective sensor. Also, the P8 was designed to perform ASW work from 30K feet, so at its operating altitude MAD would be useless anyway. There are however reports of an MAD equipped drone being especially developed by BAE for P8 use..
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
ORIGINAL: tipsypo
ORIGINAL: Rongor
I'd do so in case I would suspect some bug.Right now just asking for other peoples advice, assuming I have to learn a lot about sub warfare.
No you didn't. He did not say believe it to be a bug either though. The above I read as he will post if he believes it to be a bug, but at moment does not believe so. And was just pointing that neither does the original post say anything about a bug. But calm down was no attack upon you.
Damn...there goes my righteous rage.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
How is the weather on the ocean surface? The heavy rain on the surface will make your sonar very difficult to pickup surface contact, while the surface ship's VDS can locate you without any problem.
But I guess you are playing NI Scenario 4 "Barents Sea Boomers" right? those MAD Il-38 are nasty
But I guess you are playing NI Scenario 4 "Barents Sea Boomers" right? those MAD Il-38 are nasty
Sir? Do you want to order a Kung Pao Chicken or a Kung Fu Chicken?
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Detection range of MAD is much lower (I think about half) if the submarine has non-magnetic hull. Theoretically, a submarine could avoid an aircraft at a standard patrol height (305m) if it can dive as deep as possible (didn't check this myself).
Also, don't forget about other possibilities of detection - radar and IR. Both can be used against submarine at periscope depth. While IR is quite crap (not too many systems are capable of periscope search and those that can have maximum practical detection range about 5nm), a good radar (like Mushroom) can detect a periscope at dozen nm or more.
Also, don't forget about other possibilities of detection - radar and IR. Both can be used against submarine at periscope depth. While IR is quite crap (not too many systems are capable of periscope search and those that can have maximum practical detection range about 5nm), a good radar (like Mushroom) can detect a periscope at dozen nm or more.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Exactly!But I guess you are playing NI Scenario 4 "Barents Sea Boomers" right? those MAD Il-38 are nasty
Right now I am constantly switching depth, but I feel quite insecure about what I am doing.
My thoughts-
As deep as possible keeps me most distant from any surface/air sensor. Yet I have the Il-38 sensing me in 1000 ft depth. Also I assume that staying close at the sea floor may reduce the possible cone of upgoing reflections. On the other hand getting near the sea floor increases the intensity of my emissions hitting the reflecting surfaces on the floor.
Proceeding right under the layer should give me the greatest range for my passive sonar regarding submerged threads also below the layer. Yet I also spread my own emissions the most (I guess) under the layer, while keeping some cover vs. sensors above the layer.
Right above the layer lets me listen what is going on at the surface. OTOH I makes myself vulnerable to sensors above the layer.
Sometimes I intentionally climb to periscope depth, to enable my crew noticing surface vessels and aircraft along the horizon which I then can avoid to not proceed into their possible ASW traps.
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wild_Willie2
- Posts: 2934
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
Surfacing under Barents Sea Boomers is more or less suicide as there is a big chance that your scope will be spotted by radar....
In this scenario you can only creep along inside the layer until you are clear of the north coast of Norway and hope for the best.
In this scenario you can only creep along inside the layer until you are clear of the north coast of Norway and hope for the best.
In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.
RE: "How not to be seen" as a submarine
I had a pretty successful run recently. 1 SSBN with a conventional torpedo and 2 destroyers taken out with a nuke torpedo, both my subs survive. Then the scenario ended with a day left for some reason, but I pressed on afterwards and got another sub kill.
My tactics were to not travel above 10knots at any point whilst moving to the datum refs. While travelling there I would periodically switch to creep speed and spend a few minutes just above and just below the layers to listen, then crank back up to 10 knots.
On discovering a sub I immediately stop my discovering sub and then move my other one to a position where the unknown sub will pass by, where I then get in and follow in the baffles. Eventually the unknown SSBN is identified as hostile, so then I attack.
That's pretty much it. My main tactics was to listen to as big an area as possible by efficient search patterns and depth management, whilst keeping my subs in mutual support of each other and obviously keeping undiscovered.
My tactics were to not travel above 10knots at any point whilst moving to the datum refs. While travelling there I would periodically switch to creep speed and spend a few minutes just above and just below the layers to listen, then crank back up to 10 knots.
On discovering a sub I immediately stop my discovering sub and then move my other one to a position where the unknown sub will pass by, where I then get in and follow in the baffles. Eventually the unknown SSBN is identified as hostile, so then I attack.
That's pretty much it. My main tactics was to listen to as big an area as possible by efficient search patterns and depth management, whilst keeping my subs in mutual support of each other and obviously keeping undiscovered.