Barbarossa redux

[Philippeatbay]

I'm not David Glantz so this is by no means 100% accurate, but this is what the four main sectors of the Eastern Front looked like at the start of Barbarossa. The German Army Groups are listed next to the Soviet forces that opposed them.

German ---------------------- Soviet


Army Group North: ---------- Baltic Special Military District:

26 Divisions (1 Panzer Group) ---- 26 Divisions (6 Armored)



Army Group Center: -------------- Western Special Military District:

51 Divisions (2 Panzer Groups) ---- 36 Divisions (10 Armored)


Army Group South (Main sector): ---------------------- Kiev Special Military District:

33 Divisions (1 Panzer Group) + Hungarian Corps ---- 56 Divisions (16 Armored)



Army Group South (Romanian sector): ---- Odessa Special Military District:

7 Divisions + 14 Romanian divisions --------- 14 Divisions (2 Armored)


The different kinds of divisions aren't exaclty comparable, of course, but what this does do is give you a sense of the number of bodies the Germans had to wade through during the initial invasion (translation: relative force levels).

If you turn the fog of war off and compare who is being opposed by what, the relative force levels in each of these four sectors in the game is very different.

Even if you accept what is happening with Army Group North vs. the Baltic Military District and Army Group Center vs. the Western Military District, in the game the two parts of Army Group South are pretty much unopposed.

They shouldn't be, because in reality Army Group South should be up against equal or superior numbers.

What that means in practise is that the southern German forces can mop up the Kiev Military District without calling on a Panzer Group from Army Group Center -- in the game the Soviets die too fast for the Kiev encirclement to ever need to happen.

[HyazinthvonStrachwitz]

Mate,

I know what you mean. I am not a game designer, I am just a Beta Tester.. but I know that this is almost impossible to model. Strategic Command is relatively easy to understand in comparison to WitE, but it simply cannot deliver this.

Sometimes I compare the numbers from RL, and I think it is impossible that the Germans got so far..

[Philippeatbay]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.

Getting it right isn't easy, but it's a long way from impossible.

Many games model it, and not just Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa.

[Ostwindflak]

This game isn't designed for those types of numbers. It never has been in the past either. SC games are what I consider to be a medium level strategic game. They don't get bogged down in historical unit counts so therefore the game doesn't become a micro-study of the war.

The game is approachable in its current form to any skill level which is a testament to Bill and Hubert. While I too like to play games that become a carbon copy study of certain theaters or battles, that doesn't have to be every game produced about WWII.

[BillRunacre]

I have taken a note of your comments Philippe, thanks, and will see how things go. I'm not averse to making changes but need to be a bit careful at this stage. [:)]

[Philippeatbay]

More on a related theme from the public forums.


tm.asp?m=4176090


I don't think the problem is as much the Soviet AI as the Soviet OOB, but I doubt that you could know that without actually playing the game.


In the best of all possible worlds there would be a post-release patch to address this.

[jpinard]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

This game isn't designed for those types of numbers. It never has been in the past either. SC games are what I consider to be a medium level strategic game. They don't get bogged down in historical unit counts so therefore the game doesn't become a micro-study of the war.

The game is approachable in its current form to any skill level which is a testament to Bill and Hubert. While I too like to play games that become a carbon copy study of certain theaters or battles, that doesn't have to be every game produced about WWII.

ORIGINAL: HvS

Mate,

I know what you mean. I am not a game designer, I am just a Beta Tester.. but I know that this is almost impossible to model. Strategic Command is relatively easy to understand in comparison to WitE, but it simply cannot deliver this.

Sometimes I compare the numbers from RL, and I think it is impossible that the Germans got so far..

Agree with both of you.

[TheBattlefield]

Basically I can understand the wish for a more realistic Barbarossa with the relative strengths between German and Russian armies. A perceptible heightening of the Russian armed forces with low-performance units might be even possible. A sort of Russian "dummy" infantry unit in lower strengh would presumably have to be created for this purpose which neither be upgraded nor be postproduced. This would be necessary not to distort the game balance of the following war months by a storm of postproduced (particularly destroyed in good supply and given a bonus on the costs and the delivery time) Russian troops which flood in the important first attack phase of the Germans.

However, a deficit regarding the Russian AI which basically questions the run of the game I could not ascertain up to now.

[:)]

[Scook_99]

I don't mind this game not being exact, as the abstract just won't let it happen. As long as it provides a reasonable historical bent, and is competitive, and FUN, I will accept what you give us. If I want something to model something closer to history WitE gives me that.