Air-to-surface rockets in SPWAW

[Voriax]

Mind you, I'm not a Katz driver even though I occasionally mock the M4 Tankette users.

I think the best SPWaW battle I've ever played was with Romanians against Sov's in 1943..or was it '44...

I won.

And I had fun. That's what finally matters.

Voriax

[mogami]

Hi, Concerning the time it would take for arty or air to appear in a battle. Allied units did not move forward before being assigned arty to respond to their call. Aircraft were "stacked" up overhead waiting a target to be assigned. In any scenario where you are Germans assigned to defend the very first thing on turn one should be enemy aircraft going over your front followed by a barrage. Then as the American/Allied force encounters your units they pause while fresh aircraft/arty deal with them.
This is how the Allies fought. It was also how the Germans fought campaigns where they had air control.
Try being French against Germans in 1940 and assigning the air units to the French. The Germans lose these type battles.
Fight the same battle again only remove the French air and assign Luftwaffe support. A German walk over. In battles without air. The French will give as good as they get.

(I've made many a SPWaW player squawk after a battle because my French defeated their Germans in 1940. (and whats funny is they were the ones that asked for "no air")

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by Voriax


One of the greatest strengths of any given military 'simulator' or 'game' is the possibility of what if.

Also, as SPWaW is not a strategic level game, it is not necessary imho to display the effects of rear area bombings. The average length of a SPWaW game is so short, that even with Allied or German or any nation's air superiority it is not certain that any aircraft will arrive at the scene in time. In pre-planned advance, yes but in meeting engagement style clash? Less likely. And I bet that when a FO request air support for cleaning a suspected position he won't get a squadron's worth of planes immediately, but more likely a lesser amount.

If allied air power killed everything in sight, why the Hell did it took so long to reach Germany????

Voriax

LOL I can Agree with the "What If" but you can negotiate or design Scenarios leaving out actual Allied Capabilities and inserting Fantasy German Capabilites only if Both are actually in the Game .. I wouldn't mind a " What if" type game called "What if the Allies had almost all the stuff they really had" ... LOL
It took so long for a couple of reasons .. Brits had to stop for Tea and the Germans in 1944 were slightly better than the French were in 1940. Oh, and the Atlantic is wider than the Rhine. I think the "Tank Panic" and Non Arrivail Gut Checks should apply to any Army not having Air Superiority fighting against any Army that actually has a plauseable Air Interdiction capability.. A pair of ME-109's apperaing over Normandy probably would only get troops out of tanks out of curiosity , The Troops would have to be actually convinced that they were dangerious ... The German Troops in the ETO were convinced. Of Course, I could see a 2% chance that an Allied Tank Crew would dismount due to Axis Air in the ETO .
Please note the Praise heaped upon Allied Spotter Planes for the Great and Important job they did by the German High Command. Just be thankful you don't have to contend with them too .. Tiger Kiddies , what ya gonna do with them .. give them a tissue... poor dears ...

[mogami]

Hi, The issue gets even whackier when you move to the Eastern Front. Most players feel the game is flawed beyond repair if they lose a German tank in a battle. They seem to think the war was just 4.5 years of Germans mowing down an endless stream of mongoloids before surrendering.
Try setting up the actual June 41 battles in the South where the Soviets squashed half of AGS's armor (try it in WIR)
German SPWaW player want to fight after July 43 and still drive to victory in their super tanks. (They want the fancy toys) But also they want to deny these actions didn't occur beyond short lived local events. (It was the USSR conducting all the offensive operations and winning)
Try using a Sturmovik in a PBEM game. (But don't complain about Wurferman or other Rockets)
The Soviets are much more shafted by "play balance" then the Germans versus American/Western Allies are.
Ever look to see what a "veteran" soviets ratings are compared to run of the mill Germans?

[Voriax]

Heh, in MC LV my 3 short-barreled Stug's eventually had way over 100 kills a piece. At least in there there was no need of any 'super' weapons, had those been available

KV's were and are a royal pain in the a** though.

Voriax

[mogami]

Originally posted by Voriax
Heh, in MC LV my 3 short-barreled Stug's eventually had way over 100 kills a piece. At least in there there was no need of any 'super' weapons, had those been available

KV's were and are a royal pain in the a** though.

Voriax

Hi, The war in the east became a stug versus soviet armor war.
Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.
Even then German soldiers prefered to be supported by stugs over Tigers. (The stugs stayed the Tigers always needed to depart for fuel)
In any battle where regular german infantry is the main element you should have stugs not tanks supporting (for (I dread saying it) realism)

[Fallschirmjager]

I think this will always be a debate

Grognards who want less of a game and more of a simulation and those of us who play these products to have some fun

In PBEM we have limits of how much arty we can buy

On the eastern front artillary divisions would pound a german front line area for a few hours then attack...
Let say you play a PBEM and one side buys 15,000 points of arty and pounds the german opponents forces for 60 turns

is this realistic?
Yes
Fun?
Of course not

I agree have NO air power on the western front is dumb
But buying a dozen P-47's and half a dozen P-38's to smash half of your opponents armor on the first turn isnt very much fun...

If thats realism (and it is)...then I dont want realistic games

[UndercoverNotChickenSalad]

Fallshirm you want some of this, BOY ?

BRING IT ! :rolleyes:

[AmmoSgt]

The Point here is about what is in the Game itself ... I understand PBEM players wanting to negotiate away the other sides good stuff .. and if you can strike a bargain with another player .. then so be it , you want to limit arty or air in a PBEM game fine with me .. But in order to limit it as a negotiation it has to be in the darn game to start with .. This fighting to keep allied stuff out of the game , or dumb it down to the point it is useless is NOT helping the game.. the game should be made as realisticly rated and as inculsive of actual capabilities as possible for all sides , you want to negotiate away the Allied stuff for a PBEM game then fine .. but why WHY do so many wannabe nazi tank drivers want to reduce the GAME to a arcade game for Nazis''.. And why the Heck does Matrix listen to them? All Sides like What If's and Trying out their neat toys .. Like I said How about a what if game called "What if SPWAW inculded all the neat Allied stuff" ..
Nazi players want to do it their way .. fine well and good but the Allied players would like the same concideration. Make the Tank Panic / Nonarrival feature a switch like rarity , or you can just turn off Allied Air in preferences.

[Voriax]

Ammo, if we forget aircrafts what Allied neat stuff is missing? I have no problems in bringing them in.

Voriax

[mogami]

Hi, I prefer to fight my battles under the actual conditions.
It does slow the game down abit when before each turn you are shelled for 30 minutes.
I wish Tankhead was still around. We once fought a online battle.
I was Germany late 44. He was Canada. His 12k points versus my 5k. I had no Tigers (just a very few Mk-III and IV and my infantry was VG (with a FJ company)

The highlight of the battle for me was when the few unshattered German units made a counter thrust against his flanks (he drove through my lines on a narrow front and I massed behind the breakthrough) Once I got close enough he had to stop using his arty (or do more damage to his units then mine)

The battle lasted all night for over a week. It ended a draw and I was very happy. It seemed very real to me to have to deal with the air and over whelming numbers. I had to weigh when to commmit my reserve (half of which went up in smoke to enemy arty/air while still a long way from battle)

You can not "balance" SPWaW. One side or the other is cheated.
The system of assigning value by way of armor and gun and ignoring production numbers is greatly in favor of the Germans.
Even using the rarity does not help since the axis still pays a cheap price for the avaialble units and then simply buys others when they are not permitted to buy more of one type.
I never understand why T-34 go red.

In the actual war a single Tiger will defeat a single enemy Tank of any type. However when presented with 5 or more all at once it loses. (The 5 make up for the lower crew rating)

Only fighting battles where your 1 Tiger has to face 1 enemy tank is not balanced, nor is it real. It's a fantasy. Allowing your opponent several k worth of units that can't hurt you is not balance. (It stacks the VP in your favor even more)

I enjoy playing every nation in SPWaW. I am not afraid to take any country against any other. (Provided the battle conditions are not messed with) I played Bulgaria in the World Cup. (OK I lost all the battles but my opponenets were surprised it was harder to win then they first assumed. (My error was along with being Bulgaria I used cav and had no AFV)

[Charles2222]

Mogami

Hi, The issue gets even whackier when you move to the Eastern Front. Most players feel the game is flawed beyond repair if they lose a German tank in a battle.

What a factual unbiased observer you are!:rolleyes:

[Charles2222]

Mogami:

Hi, The war in the east became a stug versus soviet armor war.
Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.

Prove it.

Even then German soldiers prefered to be supported by stugs over Tigers. (The stugs stayed the Tigers always needed to depart for fuel)

Prove that too. In that same precise vein of research, I also found US troops preferred Stuarts to either Easy8's or Pershings, so I guess we ought to respect that and force US players from ebing able to select those! Your claims are becoming more and more ludicrous, the sad thing is you probably think we're stupid enough to believe them. the next thing you'll tell us is the troops preferred to see a Storch (which isn't in the game :p ) over a HE111!

[mogami]

I'm not going to debate my personal SPWaW experiances. I have fought too many PBEM/online battles dating back to when we had the East/West Front tourny.
If you can count, go add add up types of AFV on the East Front.
After 1944 you will see the rise of Stug compared to Tank numbers. You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here. If you have differing info post it. Your opinion is of course yours to state but please leave out the snidness. I don't use it in my posts.

[AmmoSgt]

Voriax .. WP Ammo is missing for all arty and almost all direct fire cannon ( thats a biggie ) , VT fuzing is missing ( thats a real biggie ) , Spotter Planes is Missing( Thats a real biggie ) , Indirect Fire on Support Vehicles like Amtrac's and 75mm Stuart SP Hows in Missing as in Indirect on the Halftrack GMC's with proper ammo in one unit for both Direct and Indirect fire ( not a biggie you can buy either /or Halftrack GMC but not the exact same thing) .. M20 Bazooka;s ( the 3.5 Super Bazooka last 3 months of the war, but not a real biggie ) Realistic Experience Ratings for the US so asuming you agree the basic pricing formula for units is about right the US can buy a reasonablely correct proportion of cheaper but less experience troops early in the war ( thats a Biggie ) .. 9.4 inch Hows ( not a Biggie ) Correct bazooka Ammo ( M1 and M9 Bazzokas are just folding or not folding bazookas) .. the pen difference is in the ammo so post Jan 1944 both should have the higher pen M6A3 ammo as opposed to M6A1 ammo and they should have a WP round . ( some of that has been fixed, but not the WP. ) Drivers in US Vehicles should have M2/ M1 carbines or Thompson/ M3's not pistols , Most AFV and scout jeeps should have a Bazooka ( look at any detailed TO&E .. not a biggie , nit picking on this one I admit it , can be bought seperately , pistols will do in a pinch for drivers ) Tanks should have WP/Smoke for the main gun, Some Shermans should have a 60mm Smoke Mortar that fires thru the loader top hatch ( Platoon Leader tanks for marking for Aircraft ( not a biggie since God's eyes can see the Target, but still nice for screening .. main Gun smoke/WP is critical for proper tactics / disengaement. Portable Truck mounted Smoke Generators for assaults ( not a biggy ) But having about half the ammo in Mortars being WP is a very big biggie) .. And while I am at it , Infared Night scopes for M1 carbines last couple of months of the war. Bangalor Torpedos for mine clearing / obstical clearing.. we didn't have to do it by hand w/ bayo everytime, especially on the assaults , and we did alot of assaluting ..issued to regular infantry units for RAPID mine field breeching. ( IMHO US Assaulting Troops should get a free instant 10 mine, one time 1 shot pop, or 1 level of barbed wire clear shot per squad , just like river crossings have rafts .. ) but thats a whole other issue .. but bangalore Torps are just a issue of ammo to the troops not a whole new unit. Great US Invention to bad nobody else really had such a device purpose built that could clear 50 foot of most anything in a game turn inculding assembly.. Each Man in the Squad carried one 5 foot section and assembled it into a 50 foot long 2 inch metal tube packed with explosives as they slid it onto the mine field or under the wire .. when detonated to cleared a path for the squad ( not for vehicles , just infantry) but a 1 level (10) reduction in mines or wire would be a fair simulation. This is NOT a RARE device .. common issue when breeching was anticipated.
Thats the main stuff .. I'm Happy with Air Power on all sides being somewhat over rated in accuraccy , but I fully support the Gut Check / lower accuracy thing , if it goes that way , with an on off switch

[werderwayne]

Originally posted by Sentry
Its not only air combat thats screwed.FLAK almost never hits anything in the air.I understand if 20mm Flakvirling doesnt pick off
PE-2 (dive bomber) but these guns were really deadly against low-level fighter-bombers (P-39,Typhoon,IL-2,Lagg-3).
It is very rare,when flak manages to shoot down one plane during the battle and there are about 6-8 planes who decimate my infantry with 50kg bombs . Big caliber flaks have basically same ratio against air target,but atleast i can use them as last minute help against armor.

I noticed the same thing. I thought that it was impossible to KO an enemy plane, so I made a scenario in which I bought nothing but AA and a few tanks. With 20 or more 37mm, 20mm and 88mm AA guns all clustered in a small valley, I managed to KO a few P-51's. Up until then, I thought that it couldn't be done.

-WW

[Charles2222]

Mogami:

After 1944 you will see the rise of Stug compared to Tank numbers. You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here.

Oh really? I can research your words in this thread alone and show you changing your tune already. You didn't say "RISE" of stug numbers compared to tanks (general production numbers would tell you that), but you said, which is a whole other subject indicating stugs were going east, while the tanks that were east were sent west (which could only be even close to true during the Buldge)

Most stug production went east while the tanks went west.

You're still more than welcome to prove that most of the stugs went east, while the tanks of the east went west. Or....did you speak poorly then?

You have no clue to the amount of research I've done, before making any statment here.

Neither do you, I.

Your opinion is of course yours to state but please leave out the snidness. I don't use it in my posts.

Yeah, well try that same post out for size:

If you can count, go add add up types of AFV on the East Front.

You snide? Never. Your judgement obviously is quite clouded. A pity.



werderwayne:

I noticed the same thing. I thought that it was impossible to KO an enemy plane, so I made a scenario in which I bought nothing but AA and a few tanks. With 20 or more 37mm, 20mm and 88mm AA guns all clustered in a small valley, I managed to KO a few P-51's. Up until then, I thought that it couldn't be done.

I WOULDN'T know this from experience, but I have heard the story is quite different regarding running up against those AFV-mounted .50cal US AAMG's. I wonder why that may be? Pretty hilarious that you buy virtually an entire army of things, definitely stationary when firing, and come up with such a poor result.

[mogami]

Hi, You are reading more into a simple sentence. Stug production went east tanks went west. (as in tank production not transfering tanks off eastern front.) This would have been more clear if you had read the thread. (This was the second time I said this.

If you can count is not snide. You state you don't trust me I say go count them your self. If you examine Panzer Regt you will observe one or more Bn being replaced by Stug. If you check all Panzer and Panzer Grn Div you will find a number that on June 6 1944 have Panzer Regt with 0 tanks (stugs instead)

The Germans were not adding stugs they were using them in place of tanks.

Even some west front formations had this change. But it is hard to find one east front Panzer div that does not have stugs (formerly reserved for PZGr Div) replacing tanks in the div Panzer Rgt.

Although total numbers of tanks is on the rise, the total on the east front remains fairly stable. The number of stugs however continues to rise. I conclude the stug was gaining in importance on the eastern front while the tank was being held in the west.

[mogami]

Hi, Basically the issue is simple. The effect of air power (tactical) during the war and as represented in the game.
If you want to overlook it then several problems arise. First the Germans did not achieve their success without it. And then they lost the ground war because at some point prior they had already lost the air war.

Air had a profound effect on the outcome of battles from start to finish. Place the Allied 1944 air power in France 1940 and you get a German defeat. The rise of Soviet success parallels exactly the decline of the Luftwaffe and the rise of the Red Air Force.
If you remove the primary killer of axis AFV from the game you unbalance it in favor of the Axis. Just as if you deny the German player in 1939 or 1940 air units you make his success much more difficult (and in some cases impossible)
Try to conduct a river crossing against Poles or French without German air units (and because in the actual battles the Luftwaffe was the artillery remove German ob arty. German arty could not keep up with the forward movement of the front. The Luftwaffe not only became the arty it was the primary means of destroying the enemy arty that otherwise would have been employed)
(The loop hole in SPWaW that allows early German success. They can substitute one for the other, but they also limit allied arty. So they get something they did not have and remove or limit 2 of the most important allied weapons.

Balance is not altering facts to where one side can turn historic defeat into victory. Balance is when the outcome is decided by player tactics and battlefield knowledge not material present on map turn 1. To achieve balance you need to select missions that reflect the historic postures of each side. Germans will be defending mostly but to let them also conduct attacks you change the weather or make it a night battle. They still have to deal with enemy arty but the reduced visibility renders it somewhat ineffective. In exchange the allies do not have to deal with the long ranges of the German armor and AT guns.
Both players have to adapt and be original in their conduct of the battle. The battle retains it's realism in that these are conditions both sides faced during the conflict.

Asking for a set up with equal points, on a bright sunny day with limited OB arty and no air is not trying to balance the game. (It's stacking the deck)

[werderwayne]

Originally posted by AmmoSgt
Voriax .. WP Ammo is missing for all arty and almost all direct fire cannon ( thats a biggie ) , VT fuzing is missing ( thats a real biggie ) , "

The Flak 88 had it also.

"Spotter Planes is Missing( Thats a real biggie ) "

Agreed, so is misidentifying ground targets (unless it is pre-programmed in the scenario), and the inability of planes to see through woods and smoke is also missing.

"Indirect Fire on Support Vehicles like Amtrac's and 75mm Stuart SP Hows in Missing as in Indirect on the Halftrack GMC's with proper ammo in one unit for both Direct and Indirect fire ( not a biggie you can buy either /or Halftrack GMC but not the exact same thing) .. M20 Bazooka;s ( the 3.5 Super Bazooka last 3 months of the war, but not a real biggie )"

But the Bazooka is way too effective and, as far as I can tell, can go right through spaced armor. The US tested the Bazooka and the Panzerschreck back-to-back and found the Panzerschreck superior in every category except weight. Also, the heat rounds (it didn't mention HE rounds...I didn't know that they existed) would not explode if the target was missed and the round hit the ground. The PS rounds would ususally explode upon hitting the ground after a miss. The PS was also more accurate at all tested ranges, penetrated more and did more behind-armor damage.


"Realistic Experience Ratings for the US so asuming you agree the basic pricing formula for units is about right the US can buy a reasonablely correct proportion of cheaper but less experience troops early in the war ( thats a Biggie )

agreed.

.. 9.4 inch Hows ( not a Biggie ) Correct bazooka Ammo ( M1 and M9 Bazzokas are just folding or not folding bazookas) .. the pen difference is in the ammo so post Jan 1944 both should have the higher pen M6A3 ammo as opposed to M6A1 ammo and they should have a WP round . ( some of that has been fixed, but not the WP. ) Drivers in US Vehicles should have M2/ M1 carbines or Thompson/ M3's not pistols ,"

German AT gun crews (after 41, 42?) usually had MG's to protect the gun.

"Most AFV and scout jeeps should have a Bazooka ( look at any detailed TO&E .. not a biggie , nit picking on this one I admit it , can be bought seperately , pistols will do in a pinch for drivers ) Tanks should have WP/Smoke for the main gun, Some Shermans should have a 60mm Smoke Mortar that fires thru the loader top hatch ( Platoon Leader tanks for marking for Aircraft ( not a biggie since God's eyes can see the Target, but still nice for screening"

Speaking of seeing...German binoculars were MUCH better than US versions, especially in low-light conditions, so stationary, open units should sight better than allied units.

"...main Gun smoke/WP is critical for proper tactics / disengaement. Portable Truck mounted Smoke Generators for assaults ( not a biggy ) But having about half the ammo in Mortars being WP is a very big biggie) .. And while I am at it , Infared Night scopes for M1 carbines last couple of months of the war. "

Night scopes on Panthers?

"Bangalor Torpedos for mine clearing / obstical clearing.. we didn't have to do it by hand w/ bayo everytime, especially on the assaults , and we did alot of assaluting ..issued to regular infantry units for RAPID mine field breeching. ( IMHO US Assaulting Troops should get a free instant 10 mine, one time 1 shot pop, or 1 level of barbed wire clear shot per squad , just like river crossings have rafts .. ) but thats a whole other issue .. but bangalore Torps are just a issue of ammo to the troops not a whole new unit. Great US Invention to bad nobody else really had such a device purpose built that could clear 50 foot of most anything in a game turn inculding assembly.. Each Man in the Squad carried one 5 foot section and assembled it into a 50 foot long 2 inch metal tube packed with explosives as they slid it onto the mine field or under the wire .. when detonated to cleared a path for the squad ( not for vehicles , just infantry) but a 1 level (10) reduction in mines or wire would be a fair simulation. This is NOT a RARE device .. common issue when breeching was anticipated. "

Are there any mine-clearing M4's in SPWAW?

Thats the main stuff .. I'm Happy with Air Power on all sides being somewhat over rated in accuraccy , but I fully support the Gut Check / lower accuracy thing , if it goes that way , with an on off switch

I always thought that air intradiction occurred a bit farther from the actual battles...kept accidental shooting of your own side to a minimum.

I agree that BOTH sides need some additions. HOWEVER, I am really impressed with all the stuff each side DOES have.

-WW