A Plea to my Canadian Neighbors

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed May 09, 2001 4:41 am

I need your help. I want to do a scenario or two on the 2nd and/or 4th(?) Canadian Armored Divisions in the summer of 44 or even later in the Schelde Estuary.

It is HARD for me to get some good solid info. I am thinking in terms of tanks vs tanks. Can anyone help me here with book titles, references, websites, anything. I really want to do this.

If you want to e-mail me that is fine too!

Thanks..WB

Hauptmann6 · Post by **Hauptmann6** » Wed May 09, 2001 5:09 am

Here's a couple site's with info. Not sure how much use they will be to you though...
http://www3.sympatico.ca/chrjohnson/index.htm http://www.mapleleafup.org

There is another really good site called the Valor and the Horror(IIRC) but I lost the link doing a reformat. If I find it I will post it.

Haupt

pops · Post by **pops** » Wed May 09, 2001 5:42 am

I've heard the book Tug of War by W. Denis Whitaker and Shelagh Whitaker (which I have read and is excellent!) is back in print and to be found on Amazon.com for a good price. Another good series is called Maple Leaf Route with seperate volumes entitled: Falaise, Antwerp, Scheldt and Victory (or something like that.
I am working on a mod for CC3 covering the Scheldt campaign and from what I gather it was mostly infantry slogging it out through sodden polder land with the only major tank engagements taking place around the Wousche Plantage-Esschen area....though I think the Polish regiments may have had more armoured engagements earlier in the campaign.
I can't reccomend Tug of War enough as far as getting a great read on the campaign....especially from a Canadian perspective.....I've even thought of sending you the book in the past but I am always referring to it.
Good luck!

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Wed May 09, 2001 7:18 am

Thanks, fellas! I appreciate it. Are you going to do one on the assault on Walcheren (?) island? That made for some very interesting reading for me.

Tug of War..I'll look for it. And I'll check out the website right now.

Anything else, let me know..WB

DCruiser · Post by **DCruiser** » Wed May 09, 2001 11:59 pm

I've got a few suggestions for you, Wild Bill.

I agree with pops about "Tug of War" by the Whitakers (ISBN 0773732268). Denis Whitaker was with the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry at Dieppe, and then commanded the battalion during the NorthWest Europe campaign. He and his wife have written three other books together as follows:

Rhineland: The Battle to End the War (ISBN 0-7737-3257-8). This covers Allied Operations to clear the Rhineland in Feb/Mar 45, concentrating on Canadian Operations, but also tying in British and American assaults. Canadian Divisions included the 2nd and 3rd Infantry Divisions and the 4th Armoured Division. I have recently purchased this book, but have not re-read it yet, though I did read the 1st edition years ago.

Victory at Falaise: The Soldier's Story (ISBN 0-00-200017-2). This covers Canadian 1st Army operations down the Falaise highway from Caen to the closing of the gap, including the use of Kangeroos (converted Canadian Ram tanks)during armoured assaults. The authors spend quite some time discussing the actions of Major David Currie in winning the Victoria Cross, during operations at St-Lambert-sur-Dives to plug the Falaise Gap, in concert with the 1st Polish Armoured Division at Chambois (Maczuga). Currie was attempting to slow down the flow out of the gap with a squadron of the South Alberta Regt (15 Shermans) and a company of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, (later joined by a couple of more companies of infantry). The units formed part of the Fourth Canadian Armoured Division. They destroyed seven tanks, twelve 88s, and forty vehicles and killed, wounded or captured 2900 Germans, all on the 20th August.

Dieppe: Tragedy to Triumph (ISBN 0-07-551385-4) Unfortunately, this book is still out of print, but since Rhineland and Tug of War have recently been reprinted, I would'nt be surprised if this is next. Can't describe this in detail, since I haven't read it yet.

Finally, I would like to recommend one more book. It is called "Fighting For Canada: Seven Battles, 1758-1945". This book includes two Canadian World War Two skirmishes, one during the Normandy Campaign and one in Holland. Both are small battles, described in some detail.

The first is about a disaster for the 1st Hussars, part of the 2nd Armoured Brigade supporting the 3rd Infantry Division on 11 June, 1944, at Le Mesnil-Patry. Two squadron of tanks, supported by two companies of the Queen's Own Rifles assaulted units of the 12th SS Hitlerjugend, and encountered 75mm Pak anti-tank guns and Jadgpanzer IV tank destroyers. After heavy fighting, the Germans counterattacked with some armour. The books has excellent maps and an order of battle, which should aid in scenario development.

The second describes an assault by units of the 4th Armoured Division on a fortified dyke held by about 150 German paratroopers in Jan 45. This attack on the polders over soft ground and water included mostly infantry, using Buffalos and canoes, supported by Wasp flamethrowers, Shermans and Stuarts. The maps are not as detailed as for the above battle though.

Hope this helps you out and sorry for the long, long post. By the way, if you can't find the books at Amazon, check Chapters.ca.

Cheers,

DCruiser

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: DCruiser ]

DCruiser · Post by **DCruiser** » Thu May 10, 2001 12:49 am

Me Again

Here's a couple of web sites:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history
http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/index.html

The first is Veteran Affairs, with general histories, not much detail.

The second has a large number of links to explore.

Cheers,

DCruiser

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Thu May 10, 2001 1:15 am

Another book series to look for WB is the "Maple leaf route" series. The one covering the Scheldt estuary is Maple Leaf Route: Antwerp, authors last name is Copp cant remember his first name. I read through it last summer when I was considering doing a scenario about the Scheldt(until I realized I just dont have the patience) It was quite detailed with aerial photos of the battlefields.

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: McGib ]

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu May 10, 2001 1:36 am

Excellent! All of these are exactly what I had in mind. Now I am going shopping. I'll have some Canucks on the battlefield very soon. Thanks to all of you for kindly pointing me in the right direction.

Wild Bill

cbtsigsgm · Post by **cbtsigsgm** » Thu May 10, 2001 2:31 am

I know the RSM at the Canadian Combined Arms Training Center, they should have historical references for these divisions, I will see if he can help you out.

Figmo · Post by **Figmo** » Thu May 10, 2001 3:00 am

Bill,

I was looking into do one on Walcheren Island - but if the master is going to do it - that's even better!! I sent you some info by e-mail - hope it helps!!

Figmo

pops · Post by **pops** » Thu May 10, 2001 3:04 am

Just to clarify re: Maple Leaf Route "Antwerp" covers from Normandy to Antwerp...the volume "Scheldt" as it's name implies covers the Scheldt campaign itself...lots of good maps too but for terrific insight you can't beat Tug of War...it's a great read!

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri May 11, 2001 2:09 am

yo Wild Bill
being a canuck and being so impressed with the game I would love to offer any assistance especially when it might actually have som manner of worth.

I own a rather impressive library of Canadian war history which I would like to make available to you (I can scan literature if its of any use and email same to you I believe).

Currently my best items are the Maple Leaf Route volumes, as well as the Readers Digest Canada at War volumes I and II that I have (which have the orginal splendid maps not commonly available anymore).

Being something of a collector as well as a veteran model maker I have quite a massive archive in general.

Give me a private scream at my email addresss if you wish as well les.baines@sympatico.ca

any help I can offer would really let me feel I was helping repay the fine efforts that Matrix accomplishes.

Oh and I have 5.01 and while I am getting slagged in my first campaign of the new version (my tactics sucked) I can say thus far I like it.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri May 11, 2001 3:26 am

Thanks Les. I will be in touch. Modeling...I did it for many years, till cataracts and surgery ruined my near vision. Alas! A memory now!

I appreciate the good responses here at the forum from the Canucks willing to help.

Wild Bill

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Fri May 11, 2001 12:02 pm

Hello all,

I´m also planning to do some "veritable 2/45" scenarios from canadian and/or german perspective, so also would appreciate any help offered on divisional histories, maps etc.
Battles in mind: Reichswald, Moyland, Goch - Kalkar road, Hochwald gap and Xanten.

Who can help?

__________
Harry

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon May 14, 2001 8:31 pm

I am going to call on you now for your help. I need some good background on the fighting of the 2nd and 3rd Divisions around Caen (did they fight the 12thSS?) and also the Advance on Falaise. Anything you have would be appreciated. Please send any material you can via e-mail to me. I'll get on it.

billw@matrixgames.com

..WB

DCruiser · Post by **DCruiser** » Tue May 15, 2001 12:33 am

As a starting point for Canadian Army Operations, check the Canadian Military Headquarters reports on this Canadian Department of National Defence website.
http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh//history_archives/engraph/cmhq_e.asp?cat=4

These are official war time reports used as the basis of the Official Histories. Reports are in PDF format. Reports 131, 139, 146, 147 and 169 pertain to Normandy.

Happy Reading,

DCruiser

[ May 14, 2001: Message edited by: DCruiser ]

RockinHarry · Post by **RockinHarry** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:58 pm

Woaaww...!! Outstanding source and definite platinum bookmark!

...also biiiig thanks from germany!

_________
Harry

DCruiser · Post by **DCruiser** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:11 am

Glad you like the site. I first discovered it while doing research at work, on our Intranet. (I'm in the Canadian Navy). By the way, there are more reports on the site under the Army Headquarters Reports 1948-1959.
http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/history_archives/engraph/ahq_e.asp?cat=4

And while it doesn't really apply to SPWAW, there are 4 books available on the site on World War I, Korean War, Boer War and a general Canadian military history. Just check Historical Books/Out of Circulation.
http://www.dnd.ca/HR/DHH/PUBLICATIONS/ENGRAPH/out_circ_e.asp?cat=5

Finally, the Canadian Battle Series is available on line, but only in French, at the same site.
http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/history_archives/frgraph/Battle_Series_f.asp?cat=4

Cheers,

DCruiser

McGib · Post by **McGib** » Fri Jun 01, 2001 5:47 am

Originally posted by DCruiser:
I agree with pops about "Tug of War" by the Whitakers (ISBN 0773732268). Denis Whitaker was with the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry at Dieppe, and then commanded the battalion during the NorthWest Europe campaign. He and his wife have written three other books together as follows....

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: DCruiser ]

Unfortunatly last weekend Colonel Denis Whitaker past away this past sunday. He was buried on monday with full military honours. Another old soldier who has faded away.

pops · Post by **pops** » Fri Jun 01, 2001 6:43 am

Sad news indeed...where did you hear about it...any links etc to share for the net?

Godspeed Colonel!