Newbs in the East: Psych0 (Axis) vs Drakken (Sov) - SOVIET RETURNED - NO AXIS

[WingedIncubus]

Thank you for your kind words, everyone. I was not expecting that to be frank, but rather to be told to take in on the chin like a man or to get out. So this attitude is quite refreshing, and I want you guys to know I appreciate that.

While to my beginner's eyes my situation seemed totally lost, I can understand that for other, more experienced players I am resigning while I'm doing fine. I overestimate the importance of Moscow and Leningrad and that was not helped by how I interpreted some comments. I just do not know enough of the game to accurately gauge my opponent's range - and how this will dwindle in the fall because I've never reached Fall. It gives me this idea that the Axis basically has free-roaming death stars that I am powerless to even put dents in. Add to that mix that I am an emotional kind of man who tried to be up-to-challenge, and you can see why I feel disheartened.

I want also to make it clear, Psych0 has actually asked me to reconsider and not to resign the game. Because I felt helpless, I insisted back. But after all those words of encouragement, I feel much less lonely going at it. This was my main gripe about playing Soviets in WITE 1.0: Beginner players are left to their own devices with no a lot of tactical or operational resources, while the Axis basically have tutorials to win the game.

If psych0 accepts, I will take a day to reflect whether I decide to continue from here or we restart. This is by normal PBEM so I still have the files, and there is not much here that he did not know already.

If he refuses - which is his prerogative as I did resign and he did accept, we agreed to start another game but with the Soviets Defense+1, instead of Attack+1, in exchange for Mild Blizzard. I offered him that if he felt this did give me an unfair advantage after all, that he lets me know and we will restart.

And yes, I would love to see that AAR where the player was almost thrown off the map but came back to win the game.

[Psych0]

I'm happy to continue Drakken, no worries. Rather interested how it develops as I have not reached beyond Sep41 against human opponents.

Note, the +1 is for Soviets for defense and attack if I understand it correctly, so not either or. I have not played any games with that but it shouldn't be necessary if the German does not use HQ BU, so that's why I've not accepted it in my experiment. Happy to try it out though, but with mild instead of severe blizzard.

[Stelteck]

Attack +1 is interesting and not game breaking as opportunities to attack are rare and need to be carefully crafted.
But defense +1 is a completely different game.

It could be done as a test but i'am not optimistic about it.

If you want to balance the game in soviet favor, i think home rule for the opening (such as no mega big pocket south) could be interesting. The pocket around llov did not occured IRL.

[SparkleyTits]

I believe +1 defence means you will need to get 3.00 when you initiate combat so instead of a normal 2-1 CV advantage you would need a 3-1 CV advantage That is a big deal...

[Crackaces]

The good thing about continuing this game is getting a chance to learn about later stage Soviet decisions that you will have to make in the multiplayer game. If you want to see preservance in action .. read BrianG vs Sillyflower ..BrianG was almost run to the A-A line! But he stuck it out..

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Attack +1 is interesting and not game breaking as opportunities to attack are rare and need to be carefully crafted.
But defense +1 is a completely different game.

It could be done as a test but i'am not optimistic about it.

If you want to balance the game in soviet favor, i think home rule for the opening (such as no mega big pocket south) could be interesting. The pocket around llov did not occured IRL.

I have to agree with Morvael that for play balance the Soviets should get the +1 Soviet attack. I didnt agree with this before but having played from the Soviet side more and having a ton of experience from the German side the Soviet +1 attack is needed in the current rule set in the game. The only caveat I have on this is that the Soviet +1 attack during the winter is "overpowered" in a very good players hand. That is the whole reason I'm playing the games I'm playing is to try and show this as the case. I have the game with Dinglir with normal blizzard with the +1 Soviet Attack & he is preparing for the coming tide. He may be correctly set up for it in time. The other gentleman has full blizzard, full para, full invasion & hasn't prepared for the coming tide. Both are on the same turn in the game.

The true balance in the game is, "the skill of the players" Balance that and you will have a good game.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Attack +1 is interesting and not game breaking as opportunities to attack are rare and need to be carefully crafted.
But defense +1 is a completely different game.

It could be done as a test but i'am not optimistic about it.

If you want to balance the game in soviet favor, i think home rule for the opening (such as no mega big pocket south) could be interesting. The pocket around llov did not occured IRL.

I have to agree with Morvael that for play balance the Soviets should get the +1 Soviet attack. I didnt agree with this before but having played from the Soviet side more and having a ton of experience from the German side the Soviet +1 attack is needed in the current rule set in the game. The only caveat I have on this is that the Soviet +1 attack during the winter is "overpowered" in a very good players hand. That is the whole reason I'm playing the games I'm playing is to try and show this as the case. I have the game with Dinglir with normal blizzard with the +1 Soviet Attack & he is preparing for the coming tide. He may be correctly set up for it in time. The other gentleman has full blizzard, full para, full invasion & hasn't prepared for the coming tide. Both are on the same turn in the game.

The true balance in the game is, "the skill of the players" Balance that and you will have a good game.

Glad to see you've come around.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The good thing about continuing this game is getting a chance to learn about later stage Soviet decisions that you will have to make in the multiplayer game. If you want to see preservance in action .. read BrianG vs Sillyflower ..BrianG was almost run to the A-A line! But he stuck it out..

I'd say this is one of the main driver that should encourage you to continue the game, Drakken! Even if the game is tilting toward a German victory, the pure experience that you gain by slogging through the different challenges each season and year of the campaign present is really important for any future games you'll be playing.

I've played WitE for around a year now, and I haven't had the perseverance to continue a game longer than 51 turns currently (MP games go so slow that they just haven't progressed that far yet!). I feel that the lack of experience from the latter stages of the war and the consequences of my decisions made early in the war is a huge limiter for my skills in WitE. If I would have had the grit to grind through my first Soviet vs AI game couple of years ago, I wouldn't need to be guessing how I need to manage the Red Army in '42. And that'd have been only a prelude for the MP challenge!

Marshall Semyon Budyonny orders you to carry on the defense of the Motherland!



PS. If the game starts feeling painful and only feels that you can't find enjoyment in stalling an inevitable defeat, quitting is a decent option too, this is only a game after all.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Attack +1 is interesting and not game breaking as opportunities to attack are rare and need to be carefully crafted.
But defense +1 is a completely different game.

It could be done as a test but i'am not optimistic about it.

If you want to balance the game in soviet favor, i think home rule for the opening (such as no mega big pocket south) could be interesting. The pocket around llov did not occured IRL.

I have to agree with Morvael that for play balance the Soviets should get the +1 Soviet attack. I didnt agree with this before but having played from the Soviet side more and having a ton of experience from the German side the Soviet +1 attack is needed in the current rule set in the game. The only caveat I have on this is that the Soviet +1 attack during the winter is "overpowered" in a very good players hand. That is the whole reason I'm playing the games I'm playing is to try and show this as the case. I have the game with Dinglir with normal blizzard with the +1 Soviet Attack & he is preparing for the coming tide. He may be correctly set up for it in time. The other gentleman has full blizzard, full para, full invasion & hasn't prepared for the coming tide. Both are on the same turn in the game.

The true balance in the game is, "the skill of the players" Balance that and you will have a good game.

Glad to see you've come around.

I'm just a noob with crayons ;-P

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I don't think your position is as bad as you think, certainly not serious enough to resign. Playing the Soviets in 41 is quite the technical challenge these days, but it's a purely defensive one (local counterattacks aside) until the blizzard. You have to survive through to December before you get to dish some out.

I understand that the breakthrough in the North has crushed your morale, but overcoming reverses is one of the most important qualities a general can have and something that can be learned like other aspects of the craft.
There was also a serious technical flaw in your Leningrad defense. The Volchov river should have been defended, strongly East of Novgorod and at minimum a unit in the swamp two hexes further North.
You have a stroke of fortune though because he has failed to ZOC your Northern rail line which means Northern and Northwestern fronts are not in immediate danger and can be repositioned to block 4th pz group's drive on lake Ladoga.
The aim now should be to tie up 4th pz group for as long as possible. I would place one front between Leningrad and the Volkhov with the strongest units defending North of the Neva and the other front East of the Volkhov . By the way the only fortified zone you need to build in 41 is the hex to the East of Pavlovo. Get this hex to fort 3 as a priority.

The center looks ok. The breakthrough towards Vyasma isn't serious. Western front is out of position though. It needs to be repositioned North and South of Vyasma.

The South looks fine. You should be able to frustrate him behind the Dnieper for a turn or two yet before retreating towards the Donets.

Overall I would give Psycho a slight advantage in this position. Certainly not decisive.

I think timmyab has nicely summed things up. So far you have lost 1.3 million men that will not come back. In a typical game that goes the distance you may get ten times that many replacements, that's 13 million. Most of your lost units return without you having to spend admin points.

Your statement that you get s****y cavalry reinforcements is way off the mark. They are worth their weight in gold later, but not now. Your goal with them now is fill them with needed manpower and have them attack in support of your infantry where you have a good chance to win. You want to farm victories so they flip to guards status. That is a big booster later, but again not now. In effect you pay now for the payoff later.

Don't spend admin points putting valuable leaders like Konev in charge of fronts. Once again, that's for later. For now, give them armies with good units, those that have at least 40-45 morale and experience.

Don't spend a lot of admin points on forts either. As timmyab says, only the hex at x83 y16 really needs one, but that should be in place no later than turn 3. That hex then needs two units in an army with sappers and the FZ should also get 3 sappers. If you want to add other forts, keep in mind that the Axis moves so fast, most of the time those forts won't help a great deal. I don't think a future patch is going to change that to a significant degree.

Next turn I would rail out what industry near Leningrad you need, then rail out units a needed over the Mga rail line.

All in all I concur with folks that say this game is not lost. At least play it out through the clear weather turns. You'll gain far more experience than if you were just to start over.

[Telemecus]

Could I propose a third possibility as something to consider. This would of course need Pysch0 to agree. But instead of resign, why not a sabbatical? You have the PBEM to carry on at a future date.

While a lot of what the experienced players say is correct, there is the very real emotional challenge. War in the East is a monster of a game and takes so much time, energy and passion that it can be sapping. So I have been where Drakken is and if you do not see the payoff it can just stop being fun. So if you can carry on to a better point great - but if not I would say hold off from total abandonment. A holiday can always put things in perspective. As can other games against others of different levels and abilities. When you are very experienced you will laugh off this situation as trivial when you are pounding the doors of Berlin. But it is not until you have been through that that you can see this is not so bad.

[WingedIncubus]

T6 - July 24th, 1941 - Northern Sector

Alliright, you guys convinced me to continue - even though I am still not sure what I am doing.

My immediate aim is just to last until September, and see where I am at.

I fully commit Northern Front to defend the whole Leningrad area. They happen to be the strongest units I have in the North. Meanwhile 8th Army is sent East to form a front behind the Syas river, since the Volkhov river is compromised.

24th, 27th, and 31st Army are placed between Leningrad and the bridge Volkhov river. Some 27th Army's Rifle Divisions are placed as blockers east of the Volkhov to hinder any encirclement to trap those armies there.

My aim doing that is to force psych0 to either veer left into my stronger defences - and commit his panzers to act as rams, or keep pushing through three massed armies first, then have him go right into my defensive lines if he chooses to leave Leningrad to his Infantry. Hopefully, I will be able to extract more troops from the Leningrad area to save whatever I can next turn.

[WingedIncubus]

T6 - July 24th, 1941 - Central Sector

psych0 has committed to attack the Centre by going for Vyasma, with a left hook into Rzhev. I displace my Western Front right in front North and South of Vyasma: 4 lines deep and the first line with 3 counters. Meanwhile, 43rd Army is created to create screen to cover Bryansk at the lower South of the Central Sector.

Smolensk is still holding. I keep using Air Supply to keep it supplied as long as possible. Each turn it lasts it is a thorn right behind his line.

I continue to build a first line of forts in front of Moscow, plus another Fortified Region inside Moscow. All of them manned with Infantry.




Plus, for good measure, I assign Rossokovsky himself in command of 4th Army, smack in front of his massed panzers. I want his push to hurt, and give me options for a local counterattack if stars align. [X(]

[WingedIncubus]

T6 - July 24th, 1941 - Southern Sector

I had totally forgotten to garrison Dnepropetrovsk, so it fell into German hands - the remaining Industry included. [X(] I won't do this mistake this time, so I make sure that Zaporozhye is properly garrisoned. Meanwhile, his local encirclement having failed, all my remaining troops go behind the Dnepr to hold that line with two lines of defence.

His northern panzer pushed has veered eastward. My line in the South is really getting thin, so I decide to shorten my line behind the Vorskla river behind Poltava and prepare for his coming. However, Kursk is all but empty. If he veers North there will be only the Russian steppes in his way.




Crimea is getting ready for his Axis minor troops. Odds are he will have no choice but to commit some of its Infantry south to help getting through here, so I use Crimea as a tool to divert some of its forces away from my main line.

[WingedIncubus]

T6 - July 24th, 1941 - Evacuation

2 Vehicule, 2 HI and 2 Armements evacuated from Leningrad to Nizhny Nagil

3 Armament points evacuated from Poltava to Chkalov.

[Nix77]

Couple of comments on the T6 moves:

- One of the keys to Leningrad defense are the Shlisselburg hex and the light woods hex between it and Pavlovo. Those should be fortified early, and manned with strong units when the German is close. Now you have strong units in the already fortified hexes, which Psych0 won't be likely to attack directly.

- Volkhov river is critical to Leningrad survival. If it breaks, Leningrad is very likely to fall. You have a quite sparse line at Volkhov village, Psych0 is probably going to aim to Novaya Ladoga to cut Leningrad, and pass Northern Front completely. Someone suggested railing units out since Mga crossroads is still in your control (another critical hex!). That might have been a good idea. You can still ship units to Sviritsa, but the shipping limit is quite low.

- Vyazma-Rzhev line looks solid when viewed from afar without the CV values, but with close inspection it seems you're wasting the strong units on the open. I know at least HLYA defends the open hexes, but my opinion is that stronger units should get their CVs multiplied in fortified hexes and strong terrain to make them hard nuts to crack. Defend in the forests, screen in the open. Be aware that strong stacks invite enveloping moves, so prepare for that too! I think you're using AltCV? Stacks like 20=11 and 12=7 make my eyes hurt That Rokossovsky's armor stack would be 20=60 in a forest hex since they would build a L1 fort after your logistics phase.

The defense lines look generally good, but there's some fine-tuning on some of the decisions you're making.

Remember that this is only my opinion and by no means I'm criticizing you, just trying to give constructive advice. Grognards can feel free to criticize my advice and correct it if I had something wrong.

[SparkleyTits]

I have found since I have been guarding clear hexes first and foremost encirclement rate and the abandonning of huge swathes of land has gone down rather heavily for me personally.
Instead of forcing the panzers to go around my nicely defended woods by way of clear terrain (Which he will 9 times out of 10) it seems much more efficient to make them go half way around my nicely defended clear terrain by way of woods

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

I have found since I have been guarding clear hexes first and foremost encirclement rate and the abandonning of huge swathes of land has gone down rather heavily for me personally.
Instead of forcing the panzers to go around my nicely defended woods by way of clear terrain (Which he will 9 times out of 10) it seems much more efficient to make them go half way around my nicely defended clear terrain by way of woods

It really might be like this, I just need more battles under my belt to see the difference

It just feels scary to me to defend in the open. Difference between open and woods is almost the same between hasty and deliberate attack. Also a point to consider is that strong concentration of pioneers may cancel your fort defense bonus, but they can't cancel the terrain bonus.

Take that 20=11 stack for example, you're stacking three of your most powerful units, and they can be punched aside with a hasty attack by two pz divisions.

I don't of course mean that none of the clear hexes should be defended. The two hexes north of Vyazma with 3=2 and 6=3 stacks are important since they are part of the Rzhev-Vyazma forest/swamp line.

Hell, I don't know, lets just see how it pans out

[Telemecus]

Often you can just defend from unclear terrain hexes next to clear terrain - depends on whether you are just delaying or really want to stop the enemy dead of course. But usually making your opponent pay large movement point costs to go through clear terrain is enough to induce to have to attack you in your preferred terrain.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

T6 - July 24th, 1941 - Evacuation

2 Vehicule, 2 HI and 2 Armements evacuated from Leningrad to Nizhny Nagil

3 Armament points evacuated from Poltava to Chkalov.

Try to evacuate the factories fully on one go, rather than in small steps. The vehicle factory evacuated from Leningrad suffers 90% damage if you evacuate 2/10 points of it, but only 50% damage if you evacuate it fully 10/10 points.