Newbs in the East: Psych0 (Axis) vs Drakken (Sov) - SOVIET RETURNED - NO AXIS

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Often you can just defend from unclear terrain hexes next to clear terrain - depends on whether you are just delaying or really want to stop the enemy dead of course. But usually making your opponent pay large movement point costs to go through clear terrain is enough to induce to have to attack you in your preferred terrain.

Yeah, that's actually kind of what I originally meant: defend in good terrain, screen in open terrain. Attacking a 20=11 stack costs the same as attacking a 1=1 hex. Well, in this case it might actually require two divisions from the Germans since a 20CV stack is exceptional in '41 Soviet standards.

[Stelteck]

Most important thing to evacuate is vehicule. HI and AA you do not care so much.
Also evacuate 1 points of the KV-1 and T-50 factory and others stuffs produced in Leningrad area.

Do not pay too evacuate full tank factory, you will not have units to put tank inside.

What you need to evacuate 100% is the IL-2 factory of voronev when the time come. Others are not so usefull.

[SparkleyTits]

Yeah for sure the clear hexes can be dislodged and pushed aside but it allows me to gauge to a much more accurate degree what my opponents possbilities are and because of that what may happen a few turns ahead of time instead of getting anxiety from the panzers possbilities everytime I click end turn

From my very limited experience two things generally happen when defending clear hexes first and foremost
1. The Axis will attempt to break your line with no real chance of encirclement unless you pushed your luck too far and overstayed your welcome or he has HQBU and has planned ahead.
2. He attempts to circumvent through ZOC and heavy MP cost terrain

Both give ultimately similiar outcomes where you reshuffle, reform a line, give some hexes and fight again next turn, sometimes with you in better terrain and him having less fuel

The two things I generally see happen when I defend heavy terrain first and foremost is

1. Everything goes my way and he makes little ground
2. He goes around my defences and causes a mass withdrawl or an encirclement

It is great having that feeling of holding your line for sure but absolutely deflating and stomach wrenching when you are encircled and in a hasty chaos filled retreat I just prefer to minimise the risk and assume my opponent is smarter than me and will always choose the option I don't want him too

All of this could go completely out of the window with skilled players and could be because of the level of skill both me and my opponents are but I have noticed at least for now a huge decrease in the risk of my actions and the chance of me losing my forces

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

What you need to evacuate 100% is the IL-2 factory of voronev when the time come. Others are not so usefull.

Quite strong generalization

My guideline has been:

Khimki, Li-2: save at least 1, preferably more
Khimki, Li-2VV: not really needed, kind of useless bomber
Moscow, 2x Mig-3: save 1 or more of both, they'll upgrade to IL-2 factories
Moscow, Pe-3: save at least 1 at the last moment, low build limit and your only nightfighter (check the wiki link, it wasn't actually that good at operating in the dark )
Moscow, IL-10: save 1 to bomb the hell out of Berlin in 1945
Moscow, Yak-6: not really needed if you spare Pe-2R, save 1 if you do heavy recon
Moscow, Pe-2: not necessary if you don't use medium distance BAPs, save 1 to double production
Moscow, Yak-7A: save 1 to increase fighter production later (Yak-7B=>Yak-9M)
Moscow, U-2VS: not necessary, I think they're great for night bombing, but you probably can manage with only the eastern factories
Moscow, IL-4: save 1 for strategic bombing
Moscow, Pe-2R: save 1, best recon craft
Taganrog, LaGG-3 '11', save 1 for later fighters with good firepower
Kharkov, Su-2: not really needed, stops production early
Voronezh, IL-2: Save them, at this point you should have spare railcap so can save more than 1
Voronezh, IL-10: save 1 to bomb the hell out of Berlin in 1945

Moscow, 2x BM-13: save 1 or more of both to keep rocket production up
Moscow, T-40: save 1 or more if you think you will use light tanks (tank brigades & corps in '42-'43)
Leningrad: BA-10, not needed
Leningrad: KV-1, save 1 for KV-1s production later
Leningrad: T-50, save 1 to boost T-34 production later
Kharkov: T-34, save at least 1, you should have enough production unless you go tank-crazy
Voronezh, 2x BM-13: save 1 or more of both to keep rocket production up
Tambov, GAZ-MM: not really needed, save 1 if you can afford
Kolomna, GAZ-MM: not really needed, save 1 if you can afford

[timmyab]

Good decision to carry on. You may well lose but nothing will teach you useful lessons faster than defeat.

Unfortunately I think you may be about to learn another harsh lesson in the North. The lake Ladoga ports are vital to the defense of Leningrad. If they fall or supply to them is cut then Leningrad is out of supply and a direct assualt on the city becomes easy.
4th pz group will probably go East of the Volkhov river next week with the town of Volkhov as it's primary objective. The good news is that you may be able to tie up 4th pz for another 3 or 4 weeks before the port of Sviritsa is captured or isolated.

[Nix77]

One small hint popped into my mind when looking at the T6 maps: sometimes it's a good idea to spend MPs, preferably from cavalry, to convert back hexes on the front line that are not occupied. This makes the more costly to enter for all the opponents units on the next turn, and will net a nice amount of lost MPs in best cases.

Good example would be the hexes in front of Vyazma line. Though sometimes it can be worthwhile just to keep the units in place, let them rest and dig and be better prepared.

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Often you can just defend from unclear terrain hexes next to clear terrain - depends on whether you are just delaying or really want to stop the enemy dead of course. But usually making your opponent pay large movement point costs to go through clear terrain is enough to induce to have to attack you in your preferred terrain.

Also, at the end of the day, his panzers are only about 15 hexes away from Moscow - in July. I cannot afford to leave clear hexes empty, each hex I can deny and force him to commit to is a hex I have to defend - clear or not.

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Good decision to carry on. You may well lose but nothing will teach you useful lessons faster than defeat.

Unfortunately I think you may be about to learn another harsh lesson in the North. The lake Ladoga ports are vital to the defense of Leningrad. If they fall or supply to them is cut then Leningrad is out of supply and a direct assualt on the city becomes easy.
4th pz group will probably go East of the Volkhov river next week with the town of Volkhov as it's primary objective. The good news is that you may be able to tie up 4th pz for another 3 or 4 weeks before the port of Sviritsa is captured or isolated.

Hence my cruel choice: Leave also Northwest Front in the cauldron to get destroyed there or just put myself in position for Northwest Front to escape and fight another day? If I had committed all my troops to defend up to the coast he would have just went further East of Novaya Ladoga and then completely encircle me. I have to think also about troop conservation.

Sviritsa, however, will be defended to the last man. It is still way beyond his reach and the terrain there is perfect for defense.

Also, there is a port smack West of the Leningrad hex. Doesn't that count?

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Good decision to carry on. You may well lose but nothing will teach you useful lessons faster than defeat.

Unfortunately I think you may be about to learn another harsh lesson in the North. The lake Ladoga ports are vital to the defense of Leningrad. If they fall or supply to them is cut then Leningrad is out of supply and a direct assualt on the city becomes easy.
4th pz group will probably go East of the Volkhov river next week with the town of Volkhov as it's primary objective. The good news is that you may be able to tie up 4th pz for another 3 or 4 weeks before the port of Sviritsa is captured or isolated.

Hence my cruel choice: Leave also Northwest Front in the cauldron to get destroyed or just put myself in position for Northwest Front to escape and fight another day? If I had committed all my troops to defend up to the cost he would have just went further East of Novaya Ladoga and then completely encircle me. I have to think also about troop conservation.

Also, there is a port smack West of the Leningrad hex. Doesn't that count?

If Osinovets (the port smack) is the only port on the Ladoga that you control, Leningrad will be completely OOS. You need to protect Sviritsa if you want to keep Osinovets in supply.

I can't see the MPs on the unit so I'm not quite sure, but I think that you kind of left the protection of Sviritsa to half way, much of the NW front is still west of Volkhov. But that could just be they didn't have enough MPs? Now they've kind of prepared their own grave around Leningrad if the panzers can reach Novaya Ladoga through a light screen of 4-5 units next turn.

[M60A3TTS]

Hex 83 Y16 is the back door to Leningrad and isn't defended adequately.

This will likely happen next if he does some basic recon and sees how you are deployed. Once either unit A and B, followed by C are pushed aside, the Volkhov/Tivkin rail line is cut and nobody in the Leningrad area is getting out.



The units with a slash through them really aren't defending anything meaningful. They would have been better off joining the defenders to the east.

[WingedIncubus]

Okey, so let's say the absolute worst happens here next turn and psych0 seals all the way up to Sviritsa. Then what? North's done, game over?

My calculus was that he will have no choice but to push at least some troops further back if he aims for the Lagoda Lake, and my troops will retreat back toward Novaya Ladoga, some of them spilling away East of the Volhkov river because I have already hexes with 3 counters in the way. The wood and the swamps, plus the ZOCs, would eat up some more of his motorized MPs if pushes northeast.

[SparkleyTits]

The worst case scenario would be horrible but if Psych0 is a new player then unless you don't have half FOW fingers crossed you will be fine

My fingers are definitely crossed you too

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

The worst case scenario would be horrible but if Psych0 is a new player then unless you don't have half FOW fingers crossed you will be fine

My fingers are definitely crossed you too

You mean if whether Movement FOW is on or off?

We both have unit FOW, but not Movement FOW.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Okey, so let's say the absolute worst happens here next turn and psych0 seals all the way up to Sviritsa. Then what? North's done, game over?

My calculus was that he will have no choice but to push at least some troops further back if he aims for the Lagoda Lake, and my troops will retreat back toward Novaya Ladoga, some of them spilling away East of the Volhkov river because I have already hexes with 3 counters in the way. The wood and the swamps, plus the ZOCs, would eat up some more of his motorized MPs if pushes northeast.

If Psych0 does careful recon, he can probably spot the Sviritsa opening. Units A&B will be pushed to west and east accordingly by infantry to create room for motorized units. The furthest motorized divisions will force C towards Volkhov village. They need around 35 MPs to do this. They may be able to set up along Volkhov so their positions will be difficult to break. After this, the closest panzer (38=41) will need 42 MPs to ZOC Sviritsa and isolate almost 50 divisions. Lack of MPs on the German motorized units would be your salvation in this situation. The situation will be however also grim if Psych0 "only" pushes a panzer spearhead towards Volkhov village, cutting the evacuation route for the surrounded Leningrad defenders.

You have a strong concentration of forces here and with air supply you will create hard time for the Germans even when surrounded, but it's going to be a difficult uphill struggle. In this kind of situation you'll easily fall into throwing good money after bad (=sending more units to be trapped).

[SparkleyTits]

Yeah so if he moves either A&B and then C you might well be in trouble mate.

If you make mistakes from inexperience then he will too at some point hopefully it'll be now.
That is gonna be a game ending disaster the finns can just push out and guard while he moves AGN in it's entirety southwards...

Gulp..... I am praying for you bud

[HardLuckYetAgain]

This is the game that there is no HQ buildup correct?

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This is the game that there is no HQ buildup correct?

Correct.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

Okey, so let's say the absolute worst happens here next turn and psych0 seals all the way up to Sviritsa. Then what? North's done, game over?

My calculus was that he will have no choice but to push at least some troops further back if he aims for the Lagoda Lake, and my troops will retreat back toward Novaya Ladoga, some of them spilling away East of the Volhkov river because I have already hexes with 3 counters in the way. The wood and the swamps, plus the ZOCs, would eat up some more of his motorized MPs if pushes northeast.

Your underlying assumption is that there is some value to the Axis in attacking west of the Volkhov and that is false. The value in this area to your opponent is all in the port of Sviritsa with an unbroken line of communication to it. He can achieve that by simply staying east of the Volkhov and your deployment facilitates his movement. If you had shifted more eastwards with some troops, you would have a better chance keeping Leningrad in supply. Them getting cut off is inevitable in most cases, so you have to plan on dragging out that battle which consists of two parts.

The first is the defense of hex x83 Y16. That needs some of your best units under a solid general, even Zhukov. Other good units need to be sitting at Osinovets in a reserve state so when he tries crossing the Neva, you have a better chance of winning by getting reserve activations.

The second is the defense of the Ladoga ports, in this case Sviritsa. Here is where you need to have another solid army deployed east of the Volkhov to delay his advance for as long as you can.

Your worst case scenario isn't a done deal just yet. You haven't talked much about his fuel situation in your AAR. That's important to know as it helps you to understand how far he can get with the fuel he has. A number of vets who post AARs talk about the enemy's fuel state. You also don't say who is commanding your armies. That is important too. Hopefully you have good ones in place.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Drakken

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This is the game that there is no HQ buildup correct?

Correct.

Thank you.

Now, knowing that there is no HQ BU what was your line of thinking on what you wanted to accomplish in the Leningrad area knowing this is the only prize the Germans need in this area? I take away from the picture you are in unit preservation mode?

[WingedIncubus]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Your worst case scenario isn't a done deal just yet. You haven't talked much about his fuel situation in your AAR. That's important to know as it helps you to understand how far he can get with the fuel he has. A number of vets who post AARs talk about the enemy's fuel state. You also don't say who is commanding your armies. That is important too. Hopefully you have good ones in place.

Koniev is as Commander of the Northwest Front since T3 or T4. Popov's still in command of Northern Front.

How can I estimate my opponent's fuel state? I already asked this very question on T5, as when I set my soft factors to Fuel psych0's panzers and motorized divisions are always without bars.