tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

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tyronec
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tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

This is my first attempt at an AAR so please excuse me if it takes a while to get the pictures and so on working.
Have been playing WITE for about 9 months HvH. Been playing wargames for 45 years or so - boardgames, tabletop and my favourite computer games have been Steel Panthers, Total War, Civ, Panzer General but I think WITE stands as the best of the lot.

We are playing:
Sudden Death campaign.
Random weather, '+1', mild blizzard.
No para drops, No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943. In addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea,
New Patches will be used as soon as possible.
Server game, AAR running a few turns behind.

Grand Strategy.
Take Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov; with 4m Soviet losses before the blizzard. Leningrad is a must.
AGN rail line north to Pskov, then East and looping down to join the Moscow line.
AGC rail line splitting off the northern line, north of the Dvina to Smolensk and on towards Moscow.
AGS rail line running below the marshes to Kiev and looping up to link with the Moscow line; with help on T1 to flip Rova-Ruskaya.
Romanian rail line with the FBD's to D'town and onwards to Stalino. I attach the spare Romanian construction SU's to give it an extra MP.

Driving the railways forward at full speed is a must.
The next priority is to pocket as much as possible. Big pockets are good but any chance to catch a few divisions should be taken.
With the '+1' I need to be careful not to leave advanced units exposed to counterattack. I expect my opponent will reach his maximum Guards quota regardless of what I do but no need to help him.
My general style of play is to exert pressure at multiple places across the front and give my opponent difficult choices as to what to defend, then take advantage of any weaknesses. When he starts to form solid front lines try then disrupt them with deep penetrations or find a way around. Frontal assault is the last resort but if necessary there needs to be sufficient force to do the get through.



Administration.
SU's. The goal is to assign eligible SU's to armoured divisions, keeping a few pioneers back for the infantry. My logic is that the armoured divisions may have several combats per turn so that is the place to get best use from the stugs and pioneers. Infantry SU's go to the Pz, divisions and AT SU's to the motorised - don't know if this actually helps but it seems to make sense. It also keeps the motorised divisions light for doing air supply. Each infantry corps gets 6 artillery units. The AA primarily go to Pz. Corps and the Luftwaffe. Would welcome any feedback on this am not really sure if my logic is sound.
This game will try and set up a couple of 'super' infantry corps in AGN with the best divisions, leaders, artillery and some pioneers; and similar to a lesser extent in AGC. I also aim to group my best armoured divisions into corps with the best leaders and use these primarily for HQBuildups, but haven't fully been able to make this work in the past as events overtake the master plan.
So T1 set all Armies and higher to 9, all corps to 0 - to push the SU's up the command structure. Lock the three RHG armies and any corps that have nothing to push out. Also assign all spare construction SU's to the AGS RHG so that they don't migrate into corps.

Shift any divisions out of over loaded corps and assign the spare corps in AGN to PG4. Shift any infantry divisions out of Pz corps - am not sure if this is productive but it gives more flexibility to shift armoured divisions around later.

Set all airbases to Manual upgrade.
Set all armoured divisions to Refit.
Assign von Kluge to OKH.

Sequence of play for T1 is:
Any land combats that can be done without displacing any air groups - gives the fighters some easy targets.
Airbase bombing.
Remaining land combat, with some unit bombing in critical areas.

Air war.
I bomb all airbases within range with the Tac's, until they are empty. Then advance a little and take out the one near to Riga and another next to Stanislav. Then work the Romanians, rebase planes closer to the action and can take out Odessa, Kishinev and Proskorov without using the He's. Many of the airbases are so stacked with supplies that they can take a heavy load of bombers - later in the game you have to be more careful with moving bombers around. Then advance with level bomber airbases, rebasing airframes to save on movement, and get stuck into the more distant Soviet airbases. Moving these bases around is probably going to cost me some trucks but am hoping it is worth it - has anyone done analysis on the truck usage ?
5743 for 57 airframes which beats my previous record by about 300.

AGN
I do the right hook first to flip the towns on the way up to the Douvaga with the hope that more units will rout into my western Riga pocket. Then push through on the left, occupying both ports. Move the two Pz. Divisions up to Riga, attach pioneers, bomb Riga and assault. It fell at the second attack.
Have 12 units visible in the Riga pocket and 11 in the Kaunas one.

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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

AGC
I try and avoid attacking pocket units more than once in case they rout out. PG3 sends 1 corp North and one East. PG2 closes the pocket with one corps. 9th Army slides around the North of the main pocket, ready to advance next turn, leaving 3 corps of 4th Army to do most of clearing up. Clear out Brest Litovsk, the extra movement is more important than risking routing out the garrison.
33 units in the main pocket and 8 in the Eastern one, 4 units at Brest Litovsk (the Tank division didn't rout for the first time ever).


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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

AGS.
I gave some consideration to trying the start where you trap the good divisions around Shepetova and do an open L'Vov pocket, however it means delaying on clearing out trapped units and may slow down the advance at T2, so fell back on my standard opening. So aim to set up three secure pockets while advancing as far as possible with 6th Army. 17th Army will do as much of the clearing up as possible next turn.
13 units in the pocket around Kovel, 7 around Dubno and 50 in L'Vov.

Image

I don't really like doing T1 that much, am always concerned that the big pockets may not be secure so the turn feels more protective than creative. With the '+1' I expect Pandaemonium will be able to break one or two if he wants but it should cost him.
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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
SparkleyTits
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by SparkleyTits »

Good luck to both of you!
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Telemecus
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: tyronec

This is my first attempt at an AAR so please excuse me if it takes a while to get the pictures and so on working.

Wonderful to see you in action and I am sure it will be a must read. I will be following avidly. May be even a spreadsheet or two on Soviet air force losses! [:D]
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

Thanks for the interest guys, and yes - was just consulting the 'Telemachus calculator'.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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bigbaba
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by bigbaba »

good luck with your campaign. can you please activate ZOC Control so we can see your advance on the map?
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

Noted, though the next two moves are already written.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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56ajax
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by 56ajax »

Hi Tyrone, Happy Hunting.

What are your Air Doctrine settings?

And what is your process for breakdown of a unit into regiments? Like how many MPs do you leave before breakdown?
Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne
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Psych0
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by Psych0 »

+1 subscriber here. Random weather, +1 but mild winter. Will you be playing without HQ BU?

Nice opening, secure pockets but Sheperovka forces will escape.
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

My air doctrine settings for T1 only are 0% to fly, airport bombing 100/150.
There was a good posting a long time back about how to kill 5,000 planes T1, can't remember the link - I made a printed copy.
Breaking down units, move them as far as possible before breakdown if they are moving into enemy hexes.

Game is with HQBuildups, the '+1' would be a killer without it against a skilled opponent.
Yes, Sheperovka escape but am I move ahead clearing out L'Vov.

On another topic, anyone watch 'Life and Fate', a 12 part Russian TV series on the book. Is on Amazon. Great story set around the time of Stalingrad, the T-34s look quite real.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

This is the map after my recon for T2.



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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

The good news is Pandemonium has not broken any of the pockets. He has only done one recon on the whole map and no air supply. He has some 5k aircraft in the field so keeping some presence there. So what is he up to ?
North there are very few forces around Pskov and nothing massing behind to defend the river lines to Leningrad. There are about 3 full airbases but not the quality stuff.
Around Smolensk there is a fair gathering of divisions with three stacks of fighters and 4+ stacks of bombers including the IL4's.
South there is a lot, including Armour, West and South of Kiev; backed up by 3 stacks of reasonable aircraft including his Tac's. The ground troops may be in retreat or intending to take a stand on the Dnepr. There are about 20 units retreating towards Odessa.



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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

I am not sure what to make of this. It looks like he may be intending to concede Leningrad and make a strong defence of Moscow and perhaps defend the Dnepr, however that may all change.
I will do the pocket reduction first and then advance my infantry. The big decision is how many Pz. Corps to send North, usually I use 3 or even 4, so I can ponder this while doing my infantry moves. In the South I will advance the two corps from PG2 towards Kiev and perhaps transfer 16th Pz. Div from AGS to one of them. From Romania I want to get both rail lines from Ungeny clear and then make a decision next turn as to whether to take the northern route for my rail line or try and go through Odessa.


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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

The infantry eliminate 70 units, using the weaker divisions and mountain troops for mopping up pockets (to help their morale) and pushing forwards with the best ones which are faster at flipping hexes. I try and cover retreat hexes with zones of control (using security divisions, allies or whatever is available) so routs happen quicker. Have seen some discussion about a slow destruction of pockets to slow down reseeding of units to STAVKA but don't think that makes sense, the Soviets are short of manpower - not units. As far as possible the most advanced corps and infantry divisions push forward.

AGN. PG4 pushes towards Pskov, there is no defence so I end the turn with one division across the river. There is little point in going further as this is as far as my infantry will get next turn


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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

AGC. As XXXIX Pz Corp move East, just north of the Dvina, there is very little resistance. There is a chance to flip a lot of terrain around Idritsa so I bring down a motorised division from AGN, leaving it exposed and out of supply range but not sure what he can do about it. In the process I inadvertently pocket two airborne units. Not what I expected and the pocket is not secure so will see next turn how this pans out. LVII Px corps comes up from the South to make an empty pocket that should flip next turn. XXXXVII Pz corps am not sure what to do with so it gets parked Minsk - it may concern Pandaemonium if he can't spot it. Again my infantry should have maximum advance next turn.

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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

AGS. PG2 has no opposition and push forward towards Kiev but not too far. Maybe am being over cautious here. 11th Army catch a couple of infantry divisions he has left behind, effectively slowing three of my divisions down. PG1 flips a huge area East of Romania and moves to threaten Odessa. The reinforcement armoured divisions rail to the Romanian border - this is like a free HQBuildup and no fatigue. I like the situation down south: next turn PG1 can assault Odessa OR try and pocket something there OR just push past.
Some Romanians are shifted north for garrison duty, AGS security divisions will all be sent to AGN and AGC.


Image

The Luftwaffe does some reorganisation after the shambles of T1 and gets some rest.
I generally monitor the Luftwaffe fatigue, if airgroups are much over 20 will rest them - had noticed in one game that my fighters were not shooing down much and on inspection their fatigue was up around 25+. Am also going to watch TOE and fatigue for ground forces this game and see if I can learn something from it.

My bombers and transports are all sitting on railways. Some fighters a little in front (they don't use too much supply so am guessing fairly light on trucks). Have thrown some empty airbases forwards to be available to make airstrikes next turn.


Administration.
Lock all corps. Set Armies to '0' unless they are already empty, to keep pushing the SU's up the line. The only reorg. I do this turn is to move all Romanian units into Romanian corps, to clear space for the 4 reinforcement divisions. Will hold back on assigning SU's and leaders until I have a better idea where they are needed.
Downgrade some of the leaving fighters to 109E-3's. Could leave it till later but it is more complicated that way.
Upgrade some Ju88's to the old He111's, which are better airframes.
Assign my transports to AGS, they are on the railway just below the marshes.

As I pass the turn to Pandemonium all is running smoothly, but these are just the preparatory moves and there was a quote somewhere about 'plans and contact with the enemy'.
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The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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Telemecus
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: tyronec
the Soviets are short of manpower - not units.

While I would say that is generally true you can create a short term unit problem for the Soviets in 1941. I am not sure holding back pocket reduction makes sense as that also means holding back your own more valuable units. But given a sufficient destruction of units in 1941 that will, for a period, be the choke point for a while as they can have manpower with no "good" places to put them.
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tyronec
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by tyronec »

Beyond my experience level, do you have any idea what that choke point is ?
The times I've played Soviets there always seemed to be stacks of empty shells but I may have been doing silly things like building SU's too early.
The lark, signing its chirping hymn,
Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.
Enough of Stalin, Freedom for the Ukraine !
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Telemecus
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RE: tyronec (Axis) vs Pandaemonium. Pandaemonium welcome

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Beyond my experience level, do you have any idea what that choke point is ?
The times I've played Soviets there always seemed to be stacks of empty shells but I may have been doing silly things like building SU's too early.

Have difficulty being exact as I have not really played Soviets. I have noticed it when I destroy ludicrous amounts of units that anyone would see it is a problem. And I suspect it does not apply to the early turns losses as they have enough time to come back.

HardLuckYetAgain has posted about it in various AARs recently, so can be read about there. I hope HardLuckYetAgain will read this and post with a more exact guide to numbers as they are very experienced with the Soviets (whatever they say!)

It may not be an exact hard limit. It may be you can get shell units, but not quick enough to fill out with the replacements inefficiencies, not be able to rail forward with the rail cap constraints, and not be able to train up and give experience quick enough. But I do feel certain there is a constraint at one point in 1941 you can hit if you eliminate enough units (as opposed to manpower).

That said I am not really sure it would change your game plan in any way. I do not think the "go slow" on unit destruction makes sense in spite of this. And other than that you will want to eliminate units in exactly the same way as you would anyway to destroy the manpower.
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