Whacky UI...

[Werewolf13]

After playing TOAW4 for the better part of the week I've had the game I'm beginning to think that Norm Kroger probably wasn't involved in the development of this version? The base game is great but the UI mechanics can be/are annoying in some cases.

Too many unpolished UI features exist for Kroger to have been involved.

For example:
1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window
2) Tool tips are practically useless as the map is not automatically redrawn when the tool tip text expires and turns off thus leaving black rectangles on screen which can only be removed by moving the map and forcing a redraw. This is especially egregious in the Map Editor. In the game I like to see all the hex details. Just turning off the Tool Tips as some have suggested is not an acceptable solution.
3) Many of the scenario descriptions omit telling the player whether or not a PO exists. For those like me that aren't in love with MP that is an issue. If there's no PO tell us.
4) Exiting the game while in progress (which I do quite often) is just plain whacky. TOAW4 is a windowed game. Try pressing the windows X in the upper right corner and watch the CF that occurs.
5) When a subreport is opened there are cases where you cannot go back to the report from which it is called (at least not by pressing escape - pretty common way) without closing it and reentering the calling report from the top.

Again - the core game is great! Took a lot of work by a competent design team to get to where the game is today. But I do wonder if maybe it wasn't released a bit early or maybe the UI didn't get the attention it needed because the team was so very familiar with it and the way it worked that the silly issues left just never were noticed because they didn't anticipate all the wierd things that could happen when guys like me do things they didn't anticipate.

It's very possible that I'm doing something wrong and not using the UI as intended - if so feel free to let me know how to use it correctly.

That said: I'm not interested in hearing from apologists, fan bois or any other of the gamer types that live in a world where devs can do no wrong.

[Dr. Foo]

You're not alone. I hate the new UI. Especially scrolling, it's very difficult. I use classic view and everything is good again!

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
After playing TOAW4 for the better part of the week I've had the game I'm beginning to think that Norm Kroger probably wasn't involved in the development of this version? The base game is great but the UI mechanics can be/are annoying in some cases.

Too many unpolished UI features exist for Kroger to have been involved.

For example:
1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window
2) Tool tips are practically useless as the map is not automatically redrawn when the tool tip text expires and turns off thus leaving black rectangles on screen which can only be removed by moving the map and forcing a redraw. This is especially egregious in the Map Editor. In the game I like to see all the hex details. Just turning off the Tool Tips as some have suggested is not an acceptable solution.
3) Many of the scenario descriptions omit telling the player whether or not a PO exists. For those like me that aren't in love with MP that is an issue. If there's no PO tell us.
4) Exiting the game while in progress (which I do quite often) is just plain whacky. TOAW4 is a windowed game. Try pressing the windows X in the upper right corner and watch the CF that occurs.
5) When a subreport is opened there are cases where you cannot go back to the report from which it is called (at least not by pressing escape - pretty common way) without closing it and reentering the calling report from the top.

Again - the core game is great! Took a lot of work by a competent design team to get to where the game is today.
But I do wonder if maybe it wasn't released a bit early or maybe the UI didn't get the attention it needed because the team was so very familiar with it and the way it worked that the silly issues left just never were noticed because they didn't anticipate all the wierd things that could happen when guys like me do things they didn't anticipate.

It's very possible that I'm doing something wrong and not using the UI as intended - if so feel free to let me know how to use it correctly.

That said: I'm not interested in hearing from apologists, fan bois or any other of the gamer types that live in a world where devs can do no wrong.

Thanks for your insight and impressions and for this report. It's important and I intend to not let it fall through
the cracks. And your good catch about beta testers developing workarounds for the little things that otherwise
obviously need to be tuned up a bit. I'm guilty of that myself. Keep up the good work and good hunting.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

After playing TOAW4 for the better part of the week I've had the game I'm beginning to think that Norm Kroger probably wasn't involved in the development of this version

You are correct. Norm Kroger had nothing to do with any version of TOAW. Not even the first version. However, Norm Koger had lots to do with it. [:D]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window.

I think someone reported this as a bug. You might want to go to Tech Support and report it as a bug again.

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
2) Tool tips are practically useless as the map is not automatically redrawn when the tool tip text expires and turns off thus leaving black rectangles on screen which can only be removed by moving the map and forcing a redraw. This is especially egregious in the Map Editor. In the game I like to see all the hex details. Just turning off the Tool Tips as some have suggested is not an acceptable solution.

This does not happen to all people. It is a machine dependent bug and Ralph is aware of it. You might want to report it as a bug in Tech Support.

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
3) Many of the scenario descriptions omit telling the player whether or not a PO exists. For those like me that aren't in love with MP that is an issue. If there's no PO tell us.

This is a scenario author problem and not associated with the game or developers.

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
4) Exiting the game while in progress (which I do quite often) is just plain whacky. TOAW4 is a windowed game. Try pressing the windows X in the upper right corner and watch the CF that occurs.

If a scenario is open and some movement or combats have taken place and I press the Window$ [x] it gives me a save or not option and closes normally.

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13
5) When a subreport is opened there are cases where you cannot go back to the report from which it is called (at least not by pressing escape - pretty common way) without closing it and reentering the calling report from the top.

A back button has been asked for by some of us. You can go to Tech Support and ask for it again. It couldn't hurt and those of us who want one need the support. [8D]

Bottom line, if you don't report problems in Tech Support they may never get fixed. [;)]

[Werewolf13]

If a scenario is open and some movement or combats have taken place and I press the Window$ [x] it gives me a save or not option and closes normally.

I too initially get the save, save and close or close option. When I select any option with close in it it doesn't. The scenario keeps running on the map in it's own window and the Main Menu comes up. If I select Quit the game does. Select new game and for me - well - it ain't pretty. Locks up sometimes and sometimes it just switches back to the scenario still running in the background rinse and repeat.

This is all very unusual for me. I purposely keep my windows vanilla; all defaults to minimize game silliness. As a result I rarely have issues - well over 100+ Steam games of which I can remember only two or three that had issues that needed resolution - which the community always had a solution to. Matrix games almost always run well and without issue - well except CMANO which I believe was over hyped and at opening had created unrealistic expectations (I got a refund - bought it on STEAM a year or so later and most of the issues I had had been resolved). I do remember one Matrix game from 9 or 10 years ago that wouldn't even load that the community knew how to fix. TOAW4 is the 1st in a while that has had issues that have made me seriously consider just setting it aside for six months or so - but don't - I like the Italy 43 scenario too much to do that and I'm really looking forward to the North Africa Campaign scenario - so I'm going to just grit my teeth and patiently wait for the UI to be fixes and figure out how to work around the issues I'm having.

[Meyer1]

1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window

Are you sure you didn't have the cursor over another unit?

[mccartyg]

Maybe legacy DX9 DDraw problem with windows 8/10? Run the 9.0c installer that should update your older DX files to be more compatible with the newer Windows.
I can't post links so search: DirectX End-User Runtime Web Installer 9.0c

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window

Are you sure you didn't have the cursor over another unit?

Here's what I see:
1) click on unit say 36th Inf Div HQ - it's the 1st unit in scenario clicked on
2) Move to another unit and click it.
3) info bar shows 36th Inf Div HQ - shouldn't do that. Should show new unit as it is the unit shown in the top window
4) Click show formation button and what gets shown is the formation the 36th Inf Div HQ is in and not the unit clicked on in step 2.

for some reason the formation that gets shown is the 1st unit clicked on. To unlock - in this example - you've got to click on the map so no unit is selected and then click the unit selected in 2) above to get the show formation button to display the formation.

Is that hard to do? No. But it is annoying. And I'm the type that likes to see the formation and all units in it and what mode they're in. Maybe that's wierd but it's what I do.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe my install didn't take all the way and should just uninstall and reinstall.

What do y'all think?

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: mccartyg

Maybe legacy DX9 DDraw problem with windows 8/10? Run the 9.0c installer that should update your older DX files to be more compatible with the newer Windows.
I can't post links so search: DirectX End-User Runtime Web Installer 9.0c

Well - if I had W8 or W10 installed that might be worth a try but I'm running W7 Pro and every game I buy installs DX9 (and will until Microsoft and game developers force me to move to 10 - hell I ran XP for what seemed like forever after W7 came out). I'm old. Used to live for change. Funny how gettin' old (66 and gaming since 1961 when I discovered Risk) changes that.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window

Are you sure you didn't have the cursor over another unit?

Here's what I see:
1) click on unit say 36th Inf Div HQ - it's the 1st unit in scenario clicked on
2) Move to another unit and click it.
3) info bar shows 36th Inf Div HQ - shouldn't do that. Should show new unit as it is the unit shown in the top window
4) Click show formation button and what gets shown is the formation the 36th Inf Div HQ is in and not the unit clicked on in step 2.

for some reason the formation that gets shown is the 1st unit clicked on. To unlock - in this example - you've got to click on the map so no unit is selected and then click the unit selected in 2) above to get the show formation button to display the formation.

Is that hard to do? No. But it is annoying. And I'm the type that likes to see the formation and all units in it and what mode they're in. Maybe that's wierd but it's what I do.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe my install didn't take all the way and should just uninstall and reinstall.

What do y'all think?

Thanks. What scenario is that? I would like to test it. Or maybe post a save?

[Werewolf13]

Meyer1:

Scenario is Italy 43 which is a 3.0 scenario. Message says it should work with 4 but maybe not?

Haven't seen any scenarios designed specifically for 4.0 (haven't really looked to be honest). Figured if they came with the product they worked with the product.

Maybe a bad assumption.

Guys: these issues are annoyances and not game breakers. I like TOAW4 - it works except for the UI - just not the way I think it should. Seems I am not alone in that opinion but those of us with UI issues are in the minority. The issues should be addressed and fixed if they are truly broken - may not be - may just be I've done a piss poor job of reading the manual - I'm not a detail oriented guy - and that's bit me in the ass more than once in real life. No reason a game should be any different.

I'm not gonna set TOAW aside (unlike CMANO - which really ticked me off) - the scenarios are well designed, interesting and in general I would consider historically accurate (military history buff but at the Macro and not the Micro level).

I started this thread because I:
1)wanted to know if Koger was involved in the develpment (answered)
2)wanted to know if others had issues with the UI? Some do.

I like the new UI - generally - I'd like it better if it worked as advertised or at least as I perceive as advertised.

[Meyer1]

Werewolf13: tested... no problems here. First unit that is selected after the German turn is the British 46th Div HQ, not the US 36th as you said... weird.
Formation dialog shows the formation of the selected unit, the same unit that is showed on the unit panel (as long the cursor is not over another unit, this works as intended)
I'm not having problems with the tool tip either, so I wonder if all this is related with some graphic card/driver issue.

[JPJ]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

If a scenario is open and some movement or combats have taken place and I press the Window$ [x] it gives me a save or not option and closes normally.

I too initially get the save, save and close or close option. When I select any option with close in it it doesn't. The scenario keeps running on the map in it's own window and the Main Menu comes up. If I select Quit the game does. Select new game and for me - well - it ain't pretty. Locks up sometimes and sometimes it just switches back to the scenario still running in the background rinse and repeat.

A similar issue of a game that continues running after File - Close has been happening here.
If I am (we are) not the only ones then it's hard to believe this isn't known already; in any case I posted this in the Tech Forum now:
tm.asp?m=4403804

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window

I don't know the details of that situation.
But I mentioned a (related?) issue with incorrect gray/yellow rings in the Tech Forum last week:

Suppose two units A and B in two different formations. When I have selected (yellow ring) unit A on the map, and click on the Unit button of Unit B in the OOB Units dialogs, then the units in B's formation get gray rings and B appears in the Unit Panel, but the yellow ring is still around unit A. Clicking "5" also centers on B with the gray ring, not on A with the yellow ring. So, in this case the yellow and gray rings appear on units in different formations.

tm.asp?m=4401269 in post #1 issue 3.

I hope other players can confirm this or point me further what I'm doing wrong.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

1) The show formation button of the new UI will show a different formation than shows in the top window

Are you sure you didn't have the cursor over another unit?

Here's what I see:
1) click on unit say 36th Inf Div HQ - it's the 1st unit in scenario clicked on
2) Move to another unit and click it.
3) info bar shows 36th Inf Div HQ - shouldn't do that. Should show new unit as it is the unit shown in the top window
4) Click show formation button and what gets shown is the formation the 36th Inf Div HQ is in and not the unit clicked on in step 2.

for some reason the formation that gets shown is the 1st unit clicked on. To unlock - in this example - you've got to click on the map so no unit is selected and then click the unit selected in 2) above to get the show formation button to display the formation.

Is that hard to do? No. But it is annoying. And I'm the type that likes to see the formation and all units in it and what mode they're in. Maybe that's wierd but it's what I do.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe my install didn't take all the way and should just uninstall and reinstall.

What do y'all think?

It this in editor? I find this problem happens with the editor. I go to deployment and the formation shown is not the correct formation. I go back into forced click the formation name and it switches back tot he correct name.

[Mordwand]

I too find the UI somewhat clumsy. The lingering black box issue is rather annoying, unit counters feel like they move from hex to hex very jerkily, and I feel the game really needs a full-screen option as the edge-of-window map scrolling seems to have a life of its own.

Also, in the 'Advanced Player Options' screen, the list of option descriptors on the left is vertically displaced from the corresponding buttons on the right. That is to say, the buttons on the right actually refer to the option listed one row below on the left. I also suspect this vertical alignment issue in the initial menu screen. When I click on 'New game', I routinely get the Windows dialog from which to load a saved game, rather than the screen with list of new scenarios.

In the main game, are the panels moveable/ dockable? If I have the 'Info line' panel open, it chops off the bottom of my 'Buttons' panel so that the reports tab is not fully visible.

Lastly, is there a way to completely deselect (but keep visible) all units so you can have a 'clean' view of the map? I can't seem to just have an initial scroll around the map area unencumbered by a thick, red movement arrow attached to a unit. I only seem to be able to select a different unit which, of course, just leads to another arrow, which I find distracting. Call it me struggling with OCD if you will!

I'm afraid I don't buy this 'It's the game's mechanics that matter, not the UI' argument. TOAW IV is my first purchase in the series, and if I'm stumbling to get started because of the UI, it's not a great first impression. The game intrigues me, but it should at least be cosmetically accessible.

Sorry if I sound like I'm moaning, but given the graphical simplicity of hex games such as this (which to me makes them even more appealing), UI annoyances seem even more... erm... annoying.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Mordwand

I too find the UI somewhat clumsy. The lingering black box issue is rather annoying, unit counters feel like they move from hex to hex very jerkily, and I feel the game really needs a full-screen option as the edge-of-window map scrolling seems to have a life of its own.

About the "black box", you could change the setting of "tooltip show" so that it would never appears.

You can use this tool to put TOAW in full screen Works great https://github.com/Codeusa/Borderless-Gaming/releases

About the jerky movement, that is very subjective, so maybe your game is not working correctly or you are very sensitive in this area [:)]

Also, in the 'Advanced Player Options' screen, the list of option descriptors on the left is vertically displaced from the corresponding buttons on the right. That is to say, the buttons on the right actually refer to the option listed one row below on the left. I also suspect this vertical alignment issue in the initial menu screen. When I click on 'New game', I routinely get the Windows dialog from which to load a saved game, rather than the screen with list of new scenarios.

I'm not having any of that in my game, something is wrong there. You should post your problem in the tech support section.

Lastly, is there a way to completely deselect (but keep visible) all units so you can have a 'clean' view of the map? I can't seem to just have an initial scroll around the map area unencumbered by a thick, red movement arrow attached to a unit. I only seem to be able to select a different unit which, of course, just leads to another arrow, which I find distracting. Call it me struggling with OCD if you will!

No way to deselect a unit, some unit is always selected. Most people that are bothered by this, eventually they get used to and forget (I know I did), some don't.

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

Werewolf13: tested... no problems here. First unit that is selected after the German turn is the British 46th Div HQ, not the US 36th as you said... weird.
Formation dialog shows the formation of the selected unit, the same unit that is showed on the unit panel (as long the cursor is not over another unit, this works as intended)
I'm not having problems with the tool tip either, so I wonder if all this is related with some graphic card/driver issue.

You're right Meyer1 the British 46th is the 1st unit by default. Then go and click the US 36th Inf Div HQ - for me the formation button when clicked will show the 46th Div formation and not the 36th div Formation.

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

ORIGINAL: Meyer1



Are you sure you didn't have the cursor over another unit?

Here's what I see:
1) click on unit say 36th Inf Div HQ - it's the 1st unit in scenario clicked on
2) Move to another unit and click it.
3) info bar shows 36th Inf Div HQ - shouldn't do that. Should show new unit as it is the unit shown in the top window
4) Click show formation button and what gets shown is the formation the 36th Inf Div HQ is in and not the unit clicked on in step 2.

for some reason the formation that gets shown is the 1st unit clicked on. To unlock - in this example - you've got to click on the map so no unit is selected and then click the unit selected in 2) above to get the show formation button to display the formation.

Is that hard to do? No. But it is annoying. And I'm the type that likes to see the formation and all units in it and what mode they're in. Maybe that's wierd but it's what I do.

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe my install didn't take all the way and should just uninstall and reinstall.

What do y'all think?

It this in editor? I find this problem happens with the editor. I go to deployment and the formation shown is not the correct formation. I go back into forced click the formation name and it switches back tot he correct name.

Happens to me in game. Not tried it in editor.

[Meyer1]

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13




You're right Meyer1 the British 46th is the 1st unit by default. Then go and click the US 36th Inf Div HQ - for me the formation button when clicked will show the 46th Div formation and not the 36th div Formation.

OK, again, no problems here. I insist, something is wrong with your game/PC interaction. I would move this issue to the tech support section.