VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome)

[timmyab]

So to answer the question is yes, without a unit next to Pskov the unit could have retreated to either spot (NW or Pskov)

Cheers. This has always been my working assumption so nothing's changed.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

bookworms we have on the forums

I hope that setting up a library of WitE-ressources qualifies me as a bookworm.
When exactly the same question came up on a German wargaming forum, I tried to put my gut feeling into a list of priorities. After I had to edit the list multiple times because of new experiences in my games I gave up on making such a list. Things that play a role are ZOCs, rail lines, movement point costs, hex ownership in near hexes and the side the retreating unit is from and maybe some items on the list I have forgotten.
My feeling is still that the NW retreat would happen with or without the 20-16 inf, but HLYA is a very great deal more experienced than me so you should not value this too high.
In any case you set up a test scen to verify this.

You Sir are highly qualified & do appreciate all the contributions you have done for the game .

My test scenarios are from old years, I did not set up a recent one and I know that river is a contributing factor on retreats. I just was not going to leave it to chance to have an extra combat unit in Pskov. But I do feel that if the river was not there then the unit would retreat 100% NW.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

bookworms we have on the forums

I hope that setting up a library of WitE-ressources qualifies me as a bookworm.
When exactly the same question came up on a German wargaming forum, I tried to put my gut feeling into a list of priorities. After I had to edit the list multiple times because of new experiences in my games I gave up on making such a list. Things that play a role are ZOCs, rail lines, movement point costs, hex ownership in near hexes and the side the retreating unit is from and maybe some items on the list I have forgotten.
My feeling is still that the NW retreat would happen with or without the 20-16 inf, but HLYA is a very great deal more experienced than me so you should not value this too high.
In any case you set up a test scen to verify this.

You Sir are highly qualified & do appreciate all the contributions you have done for the game .

My test scenarios are from old years, I did not set up a recent one and I know that river is a contributing factor on retreats. I just was not going to leave it to chance to have an extra combat unit in Pskov. But I do feel that if the river was not there then the unit would retreat 100% NW.

I will set up a test later this afternoon/tomorrow & test it out again.

[timmyab]

I know that river is a contributing factor on retreats

Yes I believe so which is why I would assume that Pskov would be the prefered retreat direction if not in enemy ZOC.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Getting German fever again. May have to pick up another game to keep the fever sedated while waiting on M60 since I know how difficult these turns are for the Soviet player at the beginning of the game.

[timmyab]

Maybe Stalin has retired to his dacha and cannot be contacted

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Maybe Stalin has retired to his dacha and cannot be contacted

Maybe ;-P.

At the current rate, my average is 1 turn a week for both of my games. I don't want to get burned out on the number of games ever again but I'm sure I could handle one more game. When I just played Germany I would carry 6-9 games at one time. Germany is so much easier than playing the Soviets the early turns.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Getting German fever again. May have to pick up another game to keep the fever sedated while waiting on M60 since I know how difficult these turns are for the Soviet player at the beginning of the game.

Perhaps you would like to join as military adviser to the EightMP Axis team? That way you could take part in the team game against supreme commander M60 as well?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Getting German fever again. May have to pick up another game to keep the fever sedated while waiting on M60 since I know how difficult these turns are for the Soviet player at the beginning of the game.

Perhaps you would like to join as military adviser to the EightMP Axis team? That way you could take part in the team game against supreme commander M60 as well?

I may do that

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Turn 6 Beginning of Turn

Air Campaign
Bombing of German Airbases


Just received turn 6 back from M60 after I had initiated my policy on Airbase CAP. As you can see the airfields were attacked twice with one of the airfields only having one attack.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Turn 6 Beginning of Turn

Air Campaign
Bombing of German Airbases

Here are the results of the bombing. I can live with the results from these bombings. Inflicting decent damage while keeping loses light. But I do have to note that the FLAK loses seems to be on the light side.

little over 100 bombers for 4 fighters and whatever else was blown up on the airbases. Win scenerio so far for me imo. (I don't know if M60 is doing ground bombardment on purpose or it was an accident or he is doing one of each, /shrug)

So I will continue & further hone my strat against Mad bombing of German airfields by the Soviets. I will post later the bombing of units which have gone totally to the crazy side of things. But that is ok it won't last forever as I bring that under control too . All in due time.

[tyronec]

Air Campaign
Bombing of German Airbases

Here are the results of the bombing. I can live with the results from these bombings. Inflicting decent damage while keeping loses light. But I do have to note that the FLAK loses seems to be on the light side.

little over 100 bombers for 4 fighters and whatever else was blown up on the airbases. Win scenerio so far for me imo. (I don't know if M60 is doing ground bombardment on purpose or it was an accident or he is doing one of each, /shrug)

So I will continue & further hone my strat against Mad bombing of German airfields by the Soviets. I will post later the bombing of units which have gone totally to the crazy side of things. But that is ok it won't last forever as I bring that under control too . All in due time.

IMO the Soviet airbase bombing tactic at this period of the game requires maximum air base bombing over several turns, that way the defending fighters get fatigued and start dropping out of the sky. Ground bombing doesn't activate so many defenders so half in half is not going to do the job. Soviets have to be killing 60 or so fighters a turn, otherwise Axis can absorb the losses and the Luftwaffe doesn't get any weaker. It also needs all the Soviet LBs, will be interesting to see how this pans out but if they continue like this could cost a lot of LBs and end up giving the Axis fighters good experience gain.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Air Campaign
Bombing of German Airbases

Here are the results of the bombing. I can live with the results from these bombings. Inflicting decent damage while keeping loses light. But I do have to note that the FLAK loses seems to be on the light side.

little over 100 bombers for 4 fighters and whatever else was blown up on the airbases. Win scenerio so far for me imo. (I don't know if M60 is doing ground bombardment on purpose or it was an accident or he is doing one of each, /shrug)

So I will continue & further hone my strat against Mad bombing of German airfields by the Soviets. I will post later the bombing of units which have gone totally to the crazy side of things. But that is ok it won't last forever as I bring that under control too . All in due time.

IMO the Soviet airbase bombing tactic at this period of the game requires maximum air base bombing over several turns, that way the defending fighters get fatigued and start dropping out of the sky. Ground bombing doesn't activate so many defenders so half in half is not going to do the job. Soviets have to be killing 60 or so fighters a turn, otherwise Axis can absorb the losses and the Luftwaffe doesn't get any weaker. It also needs all the Soviet LBs, will be interesting to see how this pans out but if they continue like this could cost a lot of LBs and end up giving the Axis fighters good experience gain.

There were only like 3 more times M60 could have bombed my airfields and when he did bomb the airfield his losses were in the 20 range. I now put all my fighters for the front in one hex airbase to further delimit the amount reaped from bombing. I did have them spread out this time and have seen the error of my ways. ButI will not let my fighters get fatigued to start dropping out of the sky and sit idly by. I have played both sides on this and know that the Soviets can prolong this bombing but in the end, the Germans will benefit from it if set up correctly. See like I was trying to explain in other AARs on how to combat this the Germans can do things that mitigate the Soviet bombing effort. At a minimum make it very expensive for the Soviets while reducing loses which so far has been the case. Will have to keep an eye on further developments & I can be totally wrong but so far it looks very promising.

1. I stopped flying my 40 plane group squadrons at night & set up a rotation for fatigued squadrons (see snapshot below)
2. The Swarm squadrons don't get as fatigued as the 40 plane groups when flying night missions(at least it seems that way to me). So the Swarms fly at night with maybe a 40 plane Bf-110 squadron(believe I am removing this from night flying)
3. Specific settings are being utilized to gain max benefit from my planes without fatiguing them

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Turn 6 Fighter fatigue

As can be seen, only two fighter squadrons of 40 planes are fatigued over 10. They will more than likely be replaced by a transfer in "fresh" squadron. (The Germans don't need 6+(40) plane fighter squadrons on a front for what they need to do imo. But again that is how I play and may not be to everyones liking. To me it is all about getting the most out of the least)

Note the highlighted yellow that the swarms fatigue is low compared to the number of missions they flew. I now know that the amount of swarms here will be reduced since fewer are better and will go into a rotation like the 40 plane squadrons.

[tyronec]

Turn 6 Fighter fatigue

As can be seen, only two fighter squadrons of 40 planes are fatigued over 10. They will more than likely be replaced by a transfer in "fresh" squadron. (The Germans don't need 6+(40) plane fighter squadrons on a front for what they need to do imo. But again that is how I play and may not be to everyones liking. To me it is all about getting the most out of the least)

Note the highlighted yellow that the swarms fatigue is low compared to the number of missions they flew. I now know that the amount of swarms here will be reduced since fewer are better and will go into a rotation like the 40 plane squadrons.

Looks like good tactics to counter the night bombing.

I don't think all out night bombing is going to gain air supremacy for the Soviets in '41; what it possibly can do is disrupt Luftwaffe support bombing. In my game with Saper he took the hit on his fighters and continued to do moderate ground support, the net effect was his ground support was restricted. By '42 his fighters will mostly be up to strength and am guessing will be on very high morale and experience.

Perhaps a couple of Soviet fighter blobs, as in your game vs Dingler, does the job just as well or even better. Protecting the key combat zones from good Luftwaffe support.

Will be interesting to see how much ground support you get in this game, though I know you have said that is not important to you in '41.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Turn 6 Fighter fatigue
Note the highlighted yellow that the swarms fatigue is low compared to the number of missions they flew.

Is this not a function of their granularity and air doctrine? Every aircraft they lose subtracts 25% from their percentage of required to fly. as a result I frequently see them fly far few miles than groups - and hence lower fatigue?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Turn 6 Fighter fatigue
Note the highlighted yellow that the swarms fatigue is low compared to the number of missions they flew.

Is this not a function of their granularity and air doctrine? Every aircraft they lose subtracts 25% from their percentage of required to fly. as a result I frequently see them fly far few miles than groups - and hence lower fatigue?

Seems to be the case. I used to hate them but now I found their calling for night fighters

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Turn 6 Fighter fatigue

As can be seen, only two fighter squadrons of 40 planes are fatigued over 10. They will more than likely be replaced by a transfer in "fresh" squadron. (The Germans don't need 6+(40) plane fighter squadrons on a front for what they need to do imo. But again that is how I play and may not be to everyones liking. To me it is all about getting the most out of the least)

Note the highlighted yellow that the swarms fatigue is low compared to the number of missions they flew. I now know that the amount of swarms here will be reduced since fewer are better and will go into a rotation like the 40 plane squadrons.

Looks like good tactics to counter the night bombing.

I don't think all out night bombing is going to gain air supremacy for the Soviets in '41; what it possibly can do is disrupt Luftwaffe support bombing. In my game with Saper he took the hit on his fighters and continued to do moderate ground support, the net effect was his ground support was restricted. By '42 his fighters will mostly be up to strength and am guessing will be on very high morale and experience.

Perhaps a couple of Soviet fighter blobs, as in your game vs Dingler, does the job just as well or even better. Protecting the key combat zones from good Luftwaffe support.

Will be interesting to see how much ground support you get in this game, though I know you have said that is not important to you in '41.

That may work but I am pretty sure I know how to break up the Soviet fighter blob too on what I did against Dinglir. But in the early game the Germans are fighting for supply and the Air War takes second seat until it is time. Usually turn 9 on certain sectors of the battlefield then things start changing

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Turn 6 completed and sent back to M60

Bombing and Recon gone Wild

M60 continues his bombing of airbases and units. Here is the eye candy for your viewing pleasure.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Turn 6 completed real-time turn

My goal for this turn was Leningrad, Bryansk, and Z-town along with cutting the rail line to the Crimea. All three areas have Industry and I want to either lock them down, eliminate, or make it double the cost to move the factories. As for Leningrad M60 removed most of the industry turn 5 because of the real and present danger charging toward "L" town. I could only find a total of 10 Arms left there. Here is "L" towns industry picture.