More Adventures In Italy With Ian

[larryfulkerson]

Ian ( Allies ) and I ( Axis ) are going to play the very latest version of the scenario, the one with ships,
and it'll be interesting to see what Ian does. I expect I'll be reacting to what he does most of the game.
He and I have been through a version of this scenario before so this isn't the first time for either of us
but I'm expecting a better game from myself than I've produced before because I really want to give Ian a
good game.

Stay tuned.

[larryfulkerson]

I thought it would be interesting to see what the Allies can see of the German
positions so I put together this movie to flip between the Allied side and the
German side.

[larryfulkerson]

I found a pretty good website for Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily and
the link for it is here:

https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... -of-sicily

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I thought it would be interesting to see what the Allies can see of the German
positions so I put together this movie to flip between the Allied side and the
German side.

Nice work....That is really helpful to people I think.

[devoncop]

We will be finishing off our first game with me playing Axis before starting this one (it is reaching an incredibly exciting climax with 35 or so turns to go) but I thought I would put a few of my pre game thoughts down here based on my experiences with this scenario so far as the Axis in a couple of fun borough's with Larry and Warspite.

1) Supply is front,back and centre of my mind as the Allies. The Axis do have a few supply issues with busted fear bridges but nothing compared to the Allies problems of rail conversion. This fact means I am very much tempted to go for Salerno OR Taranto in the early to mid game rather than both. This will keep my rail repair units concentrated and maybe allow me to bypass and then cut off the German units that are fixed on "The Road Less Travelled" (to steal from Robert Frost) on non priority coast.

The additional rail line on the East coast in this patch and it's closer proximity to Brenner (and indeed Trieste) does change calculations a bit as to preference...and the South of France front is no longer the no brainer it was given more mountainous terrain there now.

2) Airpower.

The Allies air capability is monstrous after the very early game once airfields are secured in Sicily. Larry has made me realise my usual "fire and forget" approach of putting fighters close to the front lines and bombers further back is just not good enough. I will be ruthless with fighter and bomber ranges early on and manually cut them right down as it achieves nothing in the battle for Sicily to have planes shot down over Rome !
Interdiction hampered me a lot as the Axis. I need to remember this.

3) Invasions

As the Allies Larry was bold and imaginative with his invasion attempts which as a result suffered heavy losses on several occasions but nonetheless got ashore . German troops on supply ports are fully dug in and fortified usually and will often have artillery support which is lethal. Although Larry lost some paratroops dropping in support of an invasion they are in my view vital and they will definitely be used when the time is right.

The obvious approach, and one used by both my Allied opponents to date it to invade in Reggio in the far "Toe" of Italy once Sicily is taken. It allows its defenders to be shelled across the straits prior to the attack also gives maximum air support availability. It is however a beast to advance from with easily defended mountain ranges all the way to Taranto in the East and Salerno in the west.

4) Sicily

Larry, I have found already is a very imaginative opponent so the usual strategy I have tried myself and seen used elsewhere of abandoning western Sicily and evacuating 15th Panzer Grenadier Division to Messina and thereby giving the Allies a free run to the Western airfields is not something I can rely on. If they decide to try and hold the West the Americans will not find it easy to shift them but they risk being cut off by any British advance.

Plenty to chew over !

[hingram]

The airborne troops work well for Reggio. You can use them to scout the ports and postpone reinforcements. I dropped the Brits on Palmi, saw the coast was clear and landed that French Moroccan division from Tunisia to hold off any help from the north. The next turn I dropped the 82nd near Reggio, found an open port and came across. After a few turns, I loaded up the 82nd and dropped them on Marsala in western Sicily. The key is to limit the airborne's battles on Sicily early in the game so you don't get them killed off. I hate losing air transport so early. It is really handy.

I suspect the south of France will be off-limits.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: hingram
The airborne troops work well for Reggio. You can use them to scout the ports and postpone reinforcements. I dropped the Brits on Palmi, saw the coast was clear and landed that French Moroccan division from Tunisia to hold off any help from the north. The next turn I dropped the 82nd near Reggio, found an open port and came across. After a few turns, I loaded up the 82nd and dropped them on Marsala in western Sicily. The key is to limit the airborne's battles on Sicily early in the game so you don't get them killed off. I hate losing air transport so early. It is really handy.

I suspect the south of France will be off-limits.

Hey there hingram dude: Thanks for providing the info. Ian and I can use all the advice and recon info you would care to provide. I agree with you about the paratroopers being handy and that battles with them in the early game phase should be few so they don't get hurt. And your idea about southern France being off-limits....um.....at the start of the game there's an exclusion zone around the port at Toulon and I'm not sure what releases it. But the question remains if you can land paratroopers in France ( like we knew what we were doing ). I'm not sure the paratroopers will cross an exclusion zone but even if they do and you can get some paratroopers into France, what would you like to do with them? What would their goal be? Breaking bridges in northern Italy?

[larryfulkerson]

The German NCIS, the intelligence arm of the German navy has sneaked around and spied
out the bases, ports, cities, etc. and got this good idea of what formations the Allied
side has and approx. when they will withdraw from the game. Is this information the
German player would have, do you guys think? Or would Allied OPSEC be better than I
expect. I'll post this for Ian to scan.

[devoncop]

Thanks hingram and Larry.

All into and views gratefully received ! Losing 1st Airborne so early basically means they have to be used on Sicily as Larry did.

No way would I consider using the 82nd in northern Italy or Southern France in the first 50 turns...it may give temporary satisfaction but would achieve very little in my view.

[hingram]

I imagine a wise Axis player would simply take Toulon and Grenoble ASAP. You would then need the airborne to make Toulon friendly again. Anywhere you decide to first invade Italy, the airborne should probably lead the way. And you have to keep a keen eye on that airborne pull-out date. One last drop before they disappear could be a difference maker, especially if you grab a port or an objective.

If there are bridges to be dropped in the re-drawn South of France, that could get really ugly for the Allies as there is no room to maneuver now and parts may be impassable to mobile units in cold weather.

[700851McCall]

I'm guessing but I suspect that the exclusion zone around Toulon comes down when the Allies invade southern France in Operation Dragoon, which was August '44. So after that you already have troops in Toulon making it friendly, you just can't see them. Or use them.

One other thought is that historically the British landed at Calabria and Taranto, then a week later there was another landing made at Salerno. The landings on the boot were intended to draw the Germans south, away from Salerno. It didn't work, the Germans did not move south in any numbers. But my point is that there is no need to be limited to a single invasion site. Or one landing. You can land on the boot, and elsewhere, at the same time or later.

[hingram]

Note: Larry invaded Southern France on June 7 1944 in the previous game.

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: 700851McCall

I'm guessing but I suspect that the exclusion zone around Toulon comes down when the Allies invade southern France in Operation Dragoon, which was August '44. So after that you already have troops in Toulon making it friendly, you just can't see them. Or use them.

One other thought is that historically the British landed at Calabria and Taranto, then a week later there was another landing made at Salerno. The landings on the boot were intended to draw the Germans south, away from Salerno. It didn't work, the Germans did not move south in any numbers. But my point is that there is no need to be limited to a single invasion site. Or one landing. You can land on the boot, and elsewhere, at the same time or later.

Yes they are good points. When I played as Axis v Larry it took a lot of self control not to weaken the defences further North to boost troops in the south....When the multiple invasion attempts were made further North later I was very lucky and grateful that I hadn't sent more south.

[MikeJ19]

Hi All,

This will be very interesting, the discussion is already very good. I look forward to watching it play out.

I agree with Ian about the paratroopers, they need to be used in a location that they can block or prepare and area for an invasion and then link up can happen. They can also be used to cut off the German supply lines, again only if the Allied forces can push through and linking up quickly.

Is there any advantage to having the paratroopers land on the East coast of Sicily near the mountain in a bid to capture the pass?

Ian, are you thinking of taking out the bridges in Italy to slow down Larry's reinforcements?

All the best,

[devoncop]

Hi again Mike

There are some interesting points there and I agree totally about the use of the paratroops. The idea of using them on the West rather than the East of Sicily had occurred to me to try and grab the airfields or alternatively dropping them on the North coast to block the rail line which helps the evacuation of 15th Panzer Grenadiers to strengthen Messina....

The issue with both of these options is getting the landing forces to them through low supply country roads before they are simply wiped out...bear in mind even in the interior there are scatterings of weak Italian infantry who are more than capable of blowing all the interior bridges.

On the subject of bridges I think that may be one area where my approach will differ quite significantly from Larry's. Larry did cause problems for me with large number of bridge demolitions from Brenner all the way down to Reggio at various times.


The difficulty with this from my point of view is that at more than one point both the Germans and the Allies were blowing bridges on the same turn....in the last 80 or so turns of our current game, many of the bridges Larry is now having to repair were destroyed by Allied bombers rather than retreating German troops.

My view is there is a good case for destroying bridges in Northern Italy...and maybe just before an invasion on the routes leading to the area of operations but not much else.

I may be very wrong but I would rather use my bombers on interdiction or combat support than potentially causing Allied troops more supply issues in the future.

[MikeJ19]

Ian,

I agree with your thoughts on the bridges and using Interdiction instead. Good points about the paratroopers.

[sPzAbt653]

Hi Guys - to clarify the Exclusion Zone around the south of France - it drops on Aug. 27th via an Event:

Event: 45, Allies in Southern France approaching Maritime Alps
Trigger turn: 119 (August 27th, 1944).
Effect: Remove zone 1.
Turn range = 119...120.

The Zone goes around all of south France, so the Axis also can't move into that area until after it drops.

In the last AAR/Larry vs. Devonvop, I think this Event played out the way it is intended - it gives the Allies an option to put more pressure on the Germans in another area.
I don't think the Axis player gains anything from moving units to that area before the Allies do. The Axis needs all units to defend Italy, I think.

[larryfulkerson]

Original: Steve dude
"...[Southwest France] gives the Allies an option to put more pressure on the
Germans in another area.

I made a mistake by landing on the toe of Italy....I should have gone after something
more to the north like Salerno because landing on the toe put my boys at the far end
of Italy and I think I've proved that there's not enough time to fight off resistance,
repair bridges, and have to save up supply to move or shoot, all at the same time.

I don't remember what turn I landed at Toulon but it wasn't long after the exclusion
zone was lifted. If it weren't for me opening another front in France the game would
have been exceedingly boring. Slogging through the mountains on low supply, no thanks.

[larryfulkerson]

There's just 28 more turns in the other game that we have
to finish before we get to this one so I'm guessing we'll
be done with out other game in about a week from now.
Stay tuned.

[hingram]

Playing the computer, I got so frustrated with supply in Southern Italy that I invaded all up the west coast. I hit every port. There was no major Axis units between Reggio and the port south of Salerno. Salerno was almost a bridge too far when my Para's got surrounded. My invasion force couldn't get to them. When Anzio opened up, I dropped a para scout and found a port with just a Security guard and invaded with the Moroccans and Canadians fresh from taking Sardinia and Corsica. Taking Anzio made the Salerno Axis force back off.