ORIGINAL: JasonPratt
Motorized infantry I'm not sure about yet.
Motorized infantry is neutral.
ORIGINAL: JasonPratt
Mechanized infantry has zero (i.e. neutral, not no) shock value: it doesn't generate shock, but doesn't hamper shock generation. The armored personnel can keep up with the tanks basically.
Mechanized infantry units have a shock value of 2; they generate shock by themselves. If mechanized infantry is attacking with tanks then the largest shock value in the attack is used--in this case the shock value of the tanks (i.e. 4).
ORIGINAL: countrboy
But there's no inherent advantage to combining infantry and armor as such? Beyond the fact you now have two units participating in the attack, as opposed to one?
Sure there is if the infantry has Shock (of even 0) -- i.e. Motorized or Mechanized.
Shock comes from Rapid movement of tanks.
To ignore the figures and use an example:
- If your tanks are attacking with "leg" infantry then they're moving at walking pace and therefore lose their Shock effect.
- If your tanks are attacking with "mobile" infantry then they're moving rapidly and keep their Shock effect.
So what's the benefit of combing "mobile" infantry with tanks? It inceases your final Attack Factor and the tanks keep their full Shock shift.
Does attacking from either side of a ridge reduce the attack by 50%? I am trying to figure out which side of the ridge is good for a defensive position.
This is a edit to my question above. I found out by right clicking the terrain, I get all the attack and movement modifiers. Cool. I tend to play before reading the manual in detail, so I learn as I go. haha.
So when the lightning icon is grey, no shock value, or rather negative shock.
When the lightning icon is black/yellow but shows 0, that's 0 shock, or rather neutral shock.
Other black/yellow possibilities are 4 (full 4 shifts of shock on attack... on defense this only nullifies up to 4 shifts of enemy shock)
2:E (half shock on attack, shifts, and equal to enemy shock on defense)
0:E (0 shock neutral on attack, doesn't degrade shock, and equal to enemy shock on defense up to 2 shifts)
That's correct, Jason. But like bcgames has indicated, it is possible to use foot infantry combined with armored units in an attack without negative effects. But only in an attack where the armored units' shock is nullified by terrain.
So, when armored units can use their offensive shock in an attack, then do not combine no shock units like foot units. But if the armored units cannot employ their shock, then you may add any additional units, regardless of offensive shock value...to the attack.
I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you're still confused, and I'll try again if necessary. [:)]
Beta Tester - Brother Against Brother
Beta Tester - Commander: The Great War
Beta Tester - Desert War 1940-42
I recently played the Allies against the AI, and I got my rear kicked in the regular way [&:] [:(]. I wanted to try the same scenario again as the Allies, so spent some time going back to the rulebook basics, and reading the tips in this thread. Having a new perspective on game features and tactics, I tried the same scenario, this time with a simple plan. I am half way through the scenario and I am getting the upper hand on the AI, HaHa, what a blast! [8D] [;)]
To bring this discussion right down to basics though, if I may try:
Beyond the increased aggregate attack value there is no specific added advantage to combining amour with other non-armour shock or shock neutral units in the attack, correct?
The same result could be achieved by simply adding more armour to an attack rather than by combining armour with non-armour units?
Well, yes, I figured that in cases where the terrain eliminated shock value altogether, the eliminated shock value would not then be diluted by combining with shock-negative troops.
However, in some such cases the actual combat values for armor are often (I don't think always?) reduced as well, so it isn't a good idea to send armor in those cases anyway. They aren't useless or worse -- they do still add value, but not as much as adding more non-armor would help the attack.
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
To bring this discussion right down to basics though, if I may try:
Beyond the increased aggregate attack value there is no specific added advantage to combining amour with other non-armour shock or shock neutral units in the attack, correct?
It kind of depends on one's perspective. Adding some shock is better than having no shock.
Suppose you have three infantry battalions, one of the punchiest basic units in the game. And suppose you're putting together an attack with them and one tank company.
If you happened to be starting with the tank company on your attack, and you happened to add the regiments next, you'd be diluting the shock value of the tanks. If you happened to be starting with the three infantry regiments on your attack, and you happened to add the tank company next, you'd be adding a little shock value to your attack. But the end result is the same either way: you'll be adding up the attack values of all four chips, while also shifting the odds in your favor by a small amount.
This could lead to weighing the worth of combining arms on a case-by-case basis. Adding a doofy little conscript infantry platoon to the attack of a tank company might end up chaining the tanks more than the combat value of the platoon is worth.
"Pratt creates a real, hard, dirty world that is somehow still fantastical and full of magic and mystery. Daunting, but worthwhile." -- Vanessa Lee for Front Street
• Use Combined Arms. Shock-neutral (shock=0) units can attack with tank units and not degrade their Shock modifier. If you attack using shock-capable units with leg infantry, then you will dilute your Shock and have reduced odds.
• Fight for intelligence. It’s not just the job of recce to get intel. Get infantry, artillery, and engineers into the process of fighting for intelligence. If you want intel—you need to go and get it with whatever means are available. Fight if you have to to get it.
• Maintain a Reserve. The last side to commit its reserve WINS! If there are two units left on a side – one of them is in reserve! If you commit your reserve--designate a new one--every time.
• Maintain Organizational Integrity. Don’t commit units from two different divisions to an attack against the same hex. Generally speaking, there is no benefit if you do; most often you will be punished with unfavorable odds shifts by combining the attacks or defenses of units from different HQs. If you must do it, use a Main Effort Ground Asset (if available) to overcome the disadvantages.
• Don’t Mix Corps and Division Artillery Attacks. You decrease the potential attack strengths of these units by combining them. They too fall under the organizational integrity rules. But...if the final numbers generate the odds that you need – do it.
• Keep HQs units out of range of enemy artillery. HQs units are easy to destroy if left exposed to the combined attacks of enemy artillery units and/or air assets. HQs units provide MANY easy victory points to the enemy. Their loss SEVERELY degrades the capabilities of their subordinate units. Protect your HQs units; move often – protect always.
• Anti-tank ARE.... Always place your anti-tank units so they are in position to face the enemy’s tanks. AT units twiddling their thumbs in distant locations where their armor-negating capabilities can’t be used are wasted resources.
• Anti-aircraft IS.... Positioning antiaircraft units to protect high-value friendly units vulnerable to enemy air attacks is one thing...positioning antiaircraft units deliberately--to kill enemy air assets is another. A honey pot draws flies. How can you create one? Think about it.
• Ambush Avoidance. Avoid use of road movement mode to enter enemy territory; ambushes can devastate an entire road column. Have security forward and don’t out-run it. On the other hand? Use road movement to run a corps around an open flank into the enemies rear...Fortune favors the bold.
• Artillery Target’s Intel Level
Artillery (and Air and Naval) attack strengths can be reduced or increased based on the level of intelligence acquired about enemy units in the target hex (see Fog Of War). Attack factors of artillery units, and naval and air assets* being used to attack enemy unit(s) in a hex are modified as follows:
Column 1 Average Intel Artillery /Naval /Air Level of Hex
Column 2 Attack Factor Multiplier
0 No Fire
1 0.15
2 0.35
3 0.75
4 1.00
5 1.10
Round fractions down for the average intel in a hex; however, cannot be reduced below one. The AF of artillery and naval units supporting a friendly ground unit defense (Ground Support mission) equals AF x 1.00.
• On Artillery Movement. If artillery is moving, it isn't shooting. Figure out where your artillery needs to be to "get the job done", then move it there, park it and shoot, shoot, shoot. Ground Attack...Ground Support--whatever. Bottomline--moving your artillery will do nothing for you unless you are moving it to a location where it will make a difference by Brassing-up the Target.
On Air Operations.
• Fly 'em, Rest 'em. Don’t fly your Air Assets turn after turn without rest. Never fly more than 2/3 of your air assets unless the situation demands it, and/or you have a rest plan that supports it. 50% on and 50% off is the way to keep your air assets rested. If they are not rested you will find them absent when you need them the most.
• AA exists for a reason. Place your AA units so they protect those units in your main effort that are most vulnerable to air attack. While defending, identify where the enemy’s main attack is and protect those units facing it. HQs and artillery units behind the line that are supporting the main effort should be protected with the same vigor as those critical points on the front line.
• Counter-air is important. Supporting ground operations requires much more than just providing close air support to individual attacks and/or attacking individual enemy units on the battlefield. Air superiority helps insure unfettered ground unit movement, the resupply of fuel and ammo points, and sustainment of command and control ranges.
On Naval Operations.
• Threaten. The threat of naval bombardment can be just as useful as its actual employment. Once employed – that threat is gone.
• Destroy. If you find an enemy HQs within range of naval assets, attack! Throw in some air assets if available and artillery if in range. Strike the HQs – Kill it. This impacts the supply status of all its subordinate units.
On Logistics Operations
• Spend Supplies Wisely. Don’t be stingy with your supplies; Fuel and Ammo points that remain at the end of a scenario are unused combat potential.
• Manage Supplies. HQs consume Move+ and/or Combat+ supply points based on their most costly subordinate unit. The most costly units are armor, mechanized, or motorized units.
• Think Supplies. Supplies and the lines of communications along which they travel represent the combat power potential of ground units. Never start – nor end a turn – without checking the supply status of your units – and taking action to fix or mitigate any logistics issues.
• Offense vs Defense. Generally speaking, you will use more fuel than ammo. Burn off that “excess” ammo by providing Combat+ supply to organizations that have artillery units in position and ready to expend it. Corps artillery units with Combat+ supply are sledge-hammering destroyers of enemy units.
General
• Rest your units. After each third turn (3, 6, 9, 12, etc.) there is a “night” phase during which units recover readiness at double the normal rate; use this opportunity every time--unless you have a really good reason not to.
* Attack, attack, attack!. Defense is slow death for armored forces. Find a way to offensive action and the results will be in your favor.
* Strike With a Fist!. Attacking piecemeal will be unsuccessful most of the time. Collect your forces for the Punch in the Face. Focus the efforts of land, sea and air at a single place in time. Punch as hard as hard as you can; punch with purpose.
* Grab 'em by The Belt. An enemy you outnumber should be very afraid about becoming adjacent to your superior forces. Why? Adjacency increases your ability to collect intelligence. The higher the intelligence level you have about an enemy hex, the greater the effectiveness of your artillery--especially if your artillery is supplied with Combat+.
* Grab 'em by The Belt (caveat emptor). The Grab 'em by the Belt ploy is best rewarded when used by the inferior force; it can "lock-up" the options of the superior force.
But, the contrary position is this...if you are the superior force, why lock-up your options by going toe-to-toe, face-to-face, trench-to-trench adjacent to the enemy? Don't snuggle as you would in other games--keep the enemy at arms distance--till you are ready to go all-in.
What to do? Create a security zone with your reconnaissance units--perhaps reinforced with a couple armor/motorized/mech/and/or artillery units. Goal? Keep the enemy reconnaissance and main force probes at bay...maybe kill 'em in ambush if the opportunity presents itself. Maybe get your opponent to show his counterattack hand prematurely.
• Use Combined Arms. Shock-neutral (shock=0) units can attack with tank units and not degrade their Shock modifier. If you attack using shock-capable units with leg infantry, then you will dilute your Shock and have reduced odds.
• Fight for intelligence. It’s not just the job of recce to get intel. Get infantry, artillery, and engineers into the process of fighting for intelligence. If you want intel—you need to go and get it with whatever means are available. Fight if you have to to get it.
• Maintain a Reserve. The last side to commit its reserve WINS! If there are two units left on a side – one of them is in reserve! If you commit your reserve--designate a new one--every time.
• Maintain Organizational Integrity. Don’t commit units from two different divisions to an attack against the same hex. Generally speaking, there is no benefit if you do; most often you will be punished with unfavorable odds shifts by combining the attacks or defenses of units from different HQs. If you must do it, use a Main Effort Ground Asset (if available) to overcome the disadvantages.
• Don’t Mix Corps and Division Artillery Attacks. You decrease the potential attack strengths of these units by combining them. They too fall under the organizational integrity rules. But...if the final numbers generate the odds that you need – do it.
• Keep HQs units out of range of enemy artillery. HQs units are easy to destroy if left exposed to the combined attacks of enemy artillery units and/or air assets. HQs units provide MANY easy victory points to the enemy. Their loss SEVERELY degrades the capabilities of their subordinate units. Protect your HQs units; move often – protect always.
• Anti-tank Are.... Always place your anti-tank units so they are in position to face the enemy’s tanks. AT units twiddling their thumbs in distant locations where their armor-negating capabilities can’t be used are wasted resources.
• Ambush Avoidance. Avoid use of road movement mode to enter enemy territory; ambushes can devastate an entire road column. Have security forward and don’t out-run it. On the other hand? Use road movement to run a corps around an open flank into the enemies rear...Fortune favors the bold.
On Air Operations.
• Fly 'em, Rest 'em. Don’t fly your Air Assets turn after turn without rest. Never fly more than 2/3 of your air assets unless the situation demands it, and/or you have a rest plan that supports it. 50% on and 50% off is the way to keep your air assets rested. If they are not rested you will find them absent when you need them the most.
• AA exists for a reason. Place your AA units so they protect those units in your main effort that are most vulnerable to air attack. While defending, identify where the enemy’s main attack is and protect those units facing it. HQs and artillery units behind the line that are supporting the main effort should be protected with the same vigor as those critical points on the front line.
• Counter-air is important. Supporting ground operations requires much more than just providing close air support to individual attacks and/or attacking individual enemy units on the battlefield. Air superiority helps insure unfettered ground unit movement, the resupply of fuel and ammo points, and sustainment of command and control ranges.
On Naval Operations.
• Threaten. The threat of naval bombardment can be just as useful as its actual employment. Once employed – that threat is gone.
• Destroy. If you find an enemy HQs within range of naval assets, attack! Throw in some air assets if available and artillery if in range. Strike the HQs – Kill it. This impacts the supply status of all its subordinate units.
On Logistics Operations
• Spend Supplies Wisely. Don’t be stingy with your supplies; Fuel and Ammo points that remain at the end of a scenario are unused combat potential.
• Manage Supplies. HQs consume Move+ and/or Combat+ supply points based on their most costly subordinate unit. The most costly units are armor, mechanized, or motorized units.
• Think Supplies. Supplies and the lines of communications along which they travel represent the combat power potential of ground units. Never start – nor end a turn – without checking the supply status of your units – and taking action to fix or mitigate any logistics issues.
• Offense vs Defense. Generally speaking, you will use more fuel than ammo. Burn off that “excess” ammo by providing Combat+ supply to organizations that have artillery units in position and ready to expend it. Corps artillery units with Combat+ supply are sledge-hammering destroyers of enemy units.
General
• Rest your units. After each third turn (3, 6, 9, 12, etc.) there is a “night” phase during which units recover readiness at double the normal rate; use this opportunity every time--unless you have a really good reason not to.
The multitude of unit capabilities found in the game provide the ingredients for player-created combined arms solutions.
Ok, it is a conscious design decision but then there is really no advantage, shock effects in clear terrain notwithstanding, from the employment of combining armor and infantry in the game.
Shock neutral infantry and/or artillery plus an armor unit is an advantage over separate employment. A motor infantry battalion attacking or defending without tanks just uses its printed attack/defense factors to calculate odds. A motor battalion plus a Matilda company adds the Matilda company's attack/defense strength plus its shock effect force ratio shifts to the attack or defense. An artillery battery or battalion attacking alone subtracts one from the battle intensity; combining artillery with armor or infantry units eliminates this penalty.
For future games...those taking place in the 1944-45 time frame, I would like to add a supporting arms coordination modifier for offense/defense; Americans and Brits +1 or +2, Germans and Russians +1, +0, or -1, all others -0, -1, -2, or -3. All depends on leadership + radios + firepower + doctrine + training rolled into one thing. We'll see how it grows.
The Bomb Line is a linear demarcation between the control required to use airpower in close proximity to friendly troops and the freedom of airpower to attack ground targets at will. When it comes to providing close air-support (CAS), much coordination is required. After all, you don't want to bomb your own troops. Are there other alternatives for air assets?
In Desert War, a player can use air assets to attack an enemy ground unit (known in-game as Ground Attack) or provide CAS for a ground attack or a defense (known in-game as Ground Support). The problem? Enemy anti-aircraft fire and employment of counter-air assets provided by air, naval, specials forces assets. These components diminish CAS effectiveness. The net effect? CAS is hard in the desert circa 1940-42. So...What to do?
There are two air missions that can sometimes be more effective and suffer fewer losses than CAS; they are Interdiction and Counter-air. Successful interdiction missions can reduce the number of fuel and ammo points received by your opponent, reduce the supply range of the enemy's HQs, and restrict the movement of enemy combat units. BUT...interdiction missions have to get through to do their work. Counter-air missions can shut down interdiction if sufficient friendly air assets are committed.
Bottom line? Air assets aren't just for CAS anymore...they can be used effectively Beyond the Bomb Line. So try some interdiction and/or counterair in your next game.
