FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Just in case a crisis breaks out I've gotten a good start on building a new MLR and it doesn't look like much right now but all those engineers are increasing the entrenchment in multiple hexes. I'm going to round up all the MP's, AT's, security units, etc. to see if I can't extend it further south. I intend having regiments standing in each hex eventually with the arty behind them. Fortunately railroad lines are really near so the supply level is just short of great. Instead of railing the broken divisions to Berlin for refit I think I'll get them into a good position in this area and let them rest there.
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EwaldvonKleist
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Thanks for sharing the game in such a detailed report.
I have a few questions at Devoncop:
1) What made you to launch a number of dispersed offensives at multiple places instead of focusing on two or three major thrusts? Do the game mechanics make a concentration of all artillery/air force/armour assets on a narrow part of the front to achieve a clear and wide breakthrough unrewarding?
2) Your force allocation was quite dispersed, especially in the Odessa-Crimea-lower Dnepr area and the centre bulge, the Axis side in theory enjoyed the advantage of inner lines. Does it have a sufficient rail network and rail capacity to enjoy the advantage, or do in fact the Soviet have the inner lines with a much better and more capable rail network?
3) Are you satisfied with the results of the winter offensive?
It is not meant to be a criticism, but curiosity from someone interested in the Eastern Front and game mechanics, but without knowledge of TOAW IV other than from AARs.
My own armchair-general plan would have been a massive concentration of offensive assets on the various bridgeheads over the Dnepr between Kiev and Zaporoshje combined with a break-out from Odessa and some naval landings to cut off Axis forces in several small and finally a big pocket.
For this the frontline on quiet sectors would have to be stripped to the utmost, if there are excess forces not useful down South a secondary offensive could be launched against parts or the whole of the centre bulge, preferably from the South of it to keeep the inner lines.
Overall Soviets seem in a splendid shape compared to the historical situation. My bet is Berlin in the first half of 1943.
I have a few questions at Devoncop:
1) What made you to launch a number of dispersed offensives at multiple places instead of focusing on two or three major thrusts? Do the game mechanics make a concentration of all artillery/air force/armour assets on a narrow part of the front to achieve a clear and wide breakthrough unrewarding?
2) Your force allocation was quite dispersed, especially in the Odessa-Crimea-lower Dnepr area and the centre bulge, the Axis side in theory enjoyed the advantage of inner lines. Does it have a sufficient rail network and rail capacity to enjoy the advantage, or do in fact the Soviet have the inner lines with a much better and more capable rail network?
3) Are you satisfied with the results of the winter offensive?
It is not meant to be a criticism, but curiosity from someone interested in the Eastern Front and game mechanics, but without knowledge of TOAW IV other than from AARs.
My own armchair-general plan would have been a massive concentration of offensive assets on the various bridgeheads over the Dnepr between Kiev and Zaporoshje combined with a break-out from Odessa and some naval landings to cut off Axis forces in several small and finally a big pocket.
For this the frontline on quiet sectors would have to be stripped to the utmost, if there are excess forces not useful down South a secondary offensive could be launched against parts or the whole of the centre bulge, preferably from the South of it to keeep the inner lines.
Overall Soviets seem in a splendid shape compared to the historical situation. My bet is Berlin in the first half of 1943.
The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Hi Ewald.
Thanks for the interesting post...
Regarding your first point about dispersed attacks...
The attacks I have made at this stage of the war (with the exception of the preplanned concentration on knocking Finland out of the war early) have all been made from a position of overall weakness as we are in the early war period where the Soviets are mainly at a Shock disadvantage and are more what you would think of as local counter attacks designed to try and blunt the overall Axis invasion by trying to divert Panzer units away from the spearheads.
The moves across the river Dnepr around Kiev was a good example of this as the city was falling and there is open country beyond and there were very few Soviet reserves in the area. As such the intention was to halt the Germans whilst reinforcements could be gathered to block any further advance.
As Lake Peipus froze over there was a similar position in the north...Narva was under a lot of pressure and is vital to protect Leningrad. By going across the lake it considerably extended German lines making them divert units from the push on the Narva river line.
Re your second point the dispersal of forces around Odessa is through necessity rather than choice. Once I had decided to fight for Odessa and it had been bypasssed to the north I was unable to reinforce it further due to heavy naval interdiction so Odessa became a separate front in effect......they were on their own until an offensive from the Melitopol/ Sevastapol area can relieve them.
This first Winter Offensive has been about stabilisation rather than any decisive victory so in that sense I am content....Within the next turn or so I am hoping to take Helsinki and considerable forces should be released from the Northern Front for later in the war.Larry did a great job containing my Lake Peipus thrust which at one point I hoped may see me retake the Baltic States very early but other than that I am happy.
I hope that answers your queries.....By the way the rail network for the Soviets is decent along the whole line other than Finland.
Thanks for the interesting post...
Regarding your first point about dispersed attacks...
The attacks I have made at this stage of the war (with the exception of the preplanned concentration on knocking Finland out of the war early) have all been made from a position of overall weakness as we are in the early war period where the Soviets are mainly at a Shock disadvantage and are more what you would think of as local counter attacks designed to try and blunt the overall Axis invasion by trying to divert Panzer units away from the spearheads.
The moves across the river Dnepr around Kiev was a good example of this as the city was falling and there is open country beyond and there were very few Soviet reserves in the area. As such the intention was to halt the Germans whilst reinforcements could be gathered to block any further advance.
As Lake Peipus froze over there was a similar position in the north...Narva was under a lot of pressure and is vital to protect Leningrad. By going across the lake it considerably extended German lines making them divert units from the push on the Narva river line.
Re your second point the dispersal of forces around Odessa is through necessity rather than choice. Once I had decided to fight for Odessa and it had been bypasssed to the north I was unable to reinforce it further due to heavy naval interdiction so Odessa became a separate front in effect......they were on their own until an offensive from the Melitopol/ Sevastapol area can relieve them.
This first Winter Offensive has been about stabilisation rather than any decisive victory so in that sense I am content....Within the next turn or so I am hoping to take Helsinki and considerable forces should be released from the Northern Front for later in the war.Larry did a great job containing my Lake Peipus thrust which at one point I hoped may see me retake the Baltic States very early but other than that I am happy.
I hope that answers your queries.....By the way the rail network for the Soviets is decent along the whole line other than Finland.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Question: How much does lack of supply hamper the attacker on this map?
Hank
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Lack of supply for the Axis is a major problem and is one of the reasons that the campaign in the south took so long. The supply net seems to collapse entirely during the mud seasons. Supply is so poor during that period that the supply bubbles have no number. I usually just stand in place without attacking until it improves enough to operate. This happens between T32 and T49 or so. So there are periods of time that the war has to stop for a while and lots of time is wasted.ORIGINAL: hingram
Question: How much does lack of supply hamper the attacker on this map?
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
New moves from Ian and this is the Crimea now. Ian has blown another hole in my lines but I think I can contain it so maybe there's no crisis this turn. But there's too many weak spots to be comfortable. The Soviets have turned the entrances to Sevastopol into mini-fortresses. I need to repair the bridge at Kherson to restore the flow of supply into the Crimea. Odessa is still a problem. I haven't been watching the playback so I'm not sure where the Soviet troops are concentrating. I'd better start watching the playback again.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 63.......25th January 1942
Just a quick update and first a clarification.....on looking at the losses of Heavy Rifle Squads that Larry posted last turn (36,255) and comparing them with Soviet losses of Heavy Rifle Squads (3631) it may give the impression the Germans are getting hammered but this is misleading as in the early war period most Soviet Rifle Squads are not Heavy but Regular Rifle Squads.
Soviet losses in this category are 44,115 with 70,141 on hand which gives a much truer picture.
Last turn NKVD 5th Regiment has reached the gates of Helsinki to find just a Finnish HQ and the coastal fortress there still resisting. A preliminary air bombardment of the city began but to little effect. There are hopes the city may fall this month.
The Soviet positions suffered several co-ordinated Panzer Divn attacks just NW of Valga on the western edge of the Lake Peipus incursion and small units of Soviet Cavalry were displaced and the salient itself looks under some threat.
Down south as Larry has shown above a push is intensifying from the Melitopol lines to try and relieve first Sevastapol and then Odessa..German and Hungarian resistance remains strong however...
Just a quick update and first a clarification.....on looking at the losses of Heavy Rifle Squads that Larry posted last turn (36,255) and comparing them with Soviet losses of Heavy Rifle Squads (3631) it may give the impression the Germans are getting hammered but this is misleading as in the early war period most Soviet Rifle Squads are not Heavy but Regular Rifle Squads.
Soviet losses in this category are 44,115 with 70,141 on hand which gives a much truer picture.
Last turn NKVD 5th Regiment has reached the gates of Helsinki to find just a Finnish HQ and the coastal fortress there still resisting. A preliminary air bombardment of the city began but to little effect. There are hopes the city may fall this month.
The Soviet positions suffered several co-ordinated Panzer Divn attacks just NW of Valga on the western edge of the Lake Peipus incursion and small units of Soviet Cavalry were displaced and the salient itself looks under some threat.
Down south as Larry has shown above a push is intensifying from the Melitopol lines to try and relieve first Sevastapol and then Odessa..German and Hungarian resistance remains strong however...
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 64
With most of the Soviet air force grounded in reorganisation progress is restricted to pushing the Melitopol local offensive further West leaving Soviet tanks now only 20Km from the forces pushing out of the Sevastapol isthmus and in trying to find take Helsinki.
The remnants of the Soviet Baltic Fleet combined with the few bombers still flying and NKVD and Infantry assault to hit the Finnish Coastal Fort and HQ garrison.The first assault left the city in ruins but was repelled but curious fighting continues and although the Soviet attackers could not enter the city, by turn end the garrison had been wiped out....
Next turn I hope Finland will be knocked out of the war....will the call of its capital be enough? I hope so.
With most of the Soviet air force grounded in reorganisation progress is restricted to pushing the Melitopol local offensive further West leaving Soviet tanks now only 20Km from the forces pushing out of the Sevastapol isthmus and in trying to find take Helsinki.
The remnants of the Soviet Baltic Fleet combined with the few bombers still flying and NKVD and Infantry assault to hit the Finnish Coastal Fort and HQ garrison.The first assault left the city in ruins but was repelled but curious fighting continues and although the Soviet attackers could not enter the city, by turn end the garrison had been wiped out....
Next turn I hope Finland will be knocked out of the war....will the call of its capital be enough? I hope so.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
New moves from Ian and this is the northern front lines and you can see for yourself that there's been no movement of the lines but there has been some arty bombardments back and forth. I'm waiting for Ian to push and he's waiting for me and nothing much is happening up here. I've been conducting an inventory of the combat worthy infantry divisions remaining and I'm not finding healthy numbers. I'm thinking of railing all the broken divisions to Minsk because of the great supply level and it's proximity to where most of the partisans spawn and the excellent rail network there. There's no strategic reserve and only a few Panzer divisions as local reserves, near the middle of the map, sitting on a rail. Eleven aircraft units respawned at Berlin and I moved them to forward positions; most of them were fighters. About 6 LCU's respawned and I'm letting them refit in Berlin. Most of them were cherry red, low on supply, and "untried" instead of "veteran". I don't always check for that when I put attacks together so the first combat for those units might not always be successful and their assigned proficiency might not be all that great. Maybe I should stand the "untried" units out in their formation as a marker to me that units that need special handling are present. And try to find an easy combat for them. Chase down a partisan with them, those are easy.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
This is the southern front lines and I've been successful in containing the Soviets so far. This actually surprised me. I had thought that Ian was going to to have pushed all my units out of the Crimea by now. He may yet. I'm trying to get better organized down here, put the formations back together and so on.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 65....1st February 1942
With Larry pointing out in the diplo pouch message to me that every turn the Soviets fail to break through is a turn closer to German victory (he is a master at psychological warfare😉) I decide to continue attempts to push West from Meltopol and more ground is gained as a Hungarian Security Division and German Infantry Regiment supporting it are mauled and pushed back whilst Soviet bombers attempt to keep supporting German artillery suppressed.
In the North, Helsinki falls to the tender mercies of the NKVD and I will be holding my breath to see if this causes the considerable number of Finnish Divisions I have managed to pocket throughout the country to disband. If so it will free up a lot of Soviet troops for the next stage of the war.
Morea attacks are made West of Narva and succeed in consolidating the corridor between the troops pushing West and those on the western side of lake Peipus.
Some attacks made in the central area South of Orsha are foiled by dug in artillery but the German formations are getting weakened by these probes.
With Larry pointing out in the diplo pouch message to me that every turn the Soviets fail to break through is a turn closer to German victory (he is a master at psychological warfare😉) I decide to continue attempts to push West from Meltopol and more ground is gained as a Hungarian Security Division and German Infantry Regiment supporting it are mauled and pushed back whilst Soviet bombers attempt to keep supporting German artillery suppressed.
In the North, Helsinki falls to the tender mercies of the NKVD and I will be holding my breath to see if this causes the considerable number of Finnish Divisions I have managed to pocket throughout the country to disband. If so it will free up a lot of Soviet troops for the next stage of the war.
Morea attacks are made West of Narva and succeed in consolidating the corridor between the troops pushing West and those on the western side of lake Peipus.
Some attacks made in the central area South of Orsha are foiled by dug in artillery but the German formations are getting weakened by these probes.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
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EwaldvonKleist
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
@Devoncop: Thank you for your reply! Times will for sure be only harder for the Germans once the Northern Army can be redeployed from the Finnish Front for a new offensive.
Supply lines for your lake Peipus expedition force seem to be in danger when the lakes unfreeze?
Supply lines for your lake Peipus expedition force seem to be in danger when the lakes unfreeze?
The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
WitE2&RtW3 tester
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
@Devoncop: Thank you for your reply! Times will for sure be only harder for the Germans once the Northern Army can be redeployed from the Finnish Front for a new offensive.
Supply lines for your lake Peipus expedition force seem to be in danger when the lakes unfreeze?
Hi Ewald
The spare troops once rested and moved are already allocated for a new task [:)]
See my penultimate entry last turn...steps are underway to secure the supply to troops across Lake Peipus !
Regards
ian
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 66
The Government of Finland surrenders but it's troops remain in the field for now 😠😠😠...communications evidently not too good.
The occupation of the country continues but it keeps many Soviet units tied up until they get the message.
As a means of revenge for this outrageous if heroic resistance a new branch of "Helsinki Cruises" is established and in co ordination with bombers from Leningrad and the Baltic Fleet an excursion to Tallinin overcomes the Coastal Fortress there and Soviet troops land and capture the port placing them well behind the German lines in Northern Estonia....I
In the South ferocious assaults on the Hungarians and Romanians continue with some success and there is almost a meet up with the Sevastapol break out forces but heavy artillery fire prevents it and the turn ends in a failed proficiency check caused by the heavy fighting.....
The Government of Finland surrenders but it's troops remain in the field for now 😠😠😠...communications evidently not too good.
The occupation of the country continues but it keeps many Soviet units tied up until they get the message.
As a means of revenge for this outrageous if heroic resistance a new branch of "Helsinki Cruises" is established and in co ordination with bombers from Leningrad and the Baltic Fleet an excursion to Tallinin overcomes the Coastal Fortress there and Soviet troops land and capture the port placing them well behind the German lines in Northern Estonia....I
In the South ferocious assaults on the Hungarians and Romanians continue with some success and there is almost a meet up with the Sevastapol break out forces but heavy artillery fire prevents it and the turn ends in a failed proficiency check caused by the heavy fighting.....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
New moves from Ian and this time I'm watching the combat replay to see where the Soviet troops are going and I almost swallowed my tongue watching Ian make some amphibious landings in my backfield. I've already committed the reserve so it looks like this time I really have to pull back the troops, give ground and race south to build another MLR somewhere. This was a really good move for Ian to have done. Bravo. I think I read where tanks aren't allowed in wave one but you CAN drive them ashore once you capture the port. I'm going to have to anticipate this sort of tactic from now until the end of the game and there's a lot of unguarded ports between here and Koningsburg. I'll give up the small islands without a fight since they yield me no significant advantage I think. I'm open to advice. The Sweeds can't interviene because of the exclusion zone. This changes the game. What's Ian going to do next?
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
I've started moving some units from early in the OOB and those units are mostly MP's, security forces, AT guns, followed by engineers. I've been railing them up here to garrison the ports and act as roadblocks. I realize that I'm going to need a lot more forces yet but it turns out it's not a crisis because I think I can contain all the Soviet units. I've been thinking of bringing the two Panzer divisions up here and have them stand by just in case. They are all that's left of the strategic reserve.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Hi Guys
I have emailed Larry already but just to let anyone following this know that due to some quite serious real world issues that have sprung up at home there will be a delay in resuming this AAR....
Really sorry.
Best wishes to all.
Ian
I have emailed Larry already but just to let anyone following this know that due to some quite serious real world issues that have sprung up at home there will be a delay in resuming this AAR....
Really sorry.
Best wishes to all.
Ian
"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
I was curious about pulling back to extend the Soviet supply lines and then attacking the rail lines.
Hank
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Hey there hingram dude. That's a good idea. I'll have to try that. On the other hand it looks like the game is on hold. Ian had something come up in real life that he's got to take care of. I have no idea how long.ORIGINAL: hingram
I was curious about pulling back to extend the Soviet supply lines and then attacking the rail lines.
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Ummmm....Hey you guys, I got an email from the PBEM++ system
that my game with Ian had gotten itself dropped from the
available games list. I guess Ian had some kind of severe
real life thing that came up and he's got higher priorities
to take care of right now. I guess I need another opponent
to volunteer to play FITE v.5.0, either side is okay with me.
I'm guessing I can do a move a day, maybe more depending on
the complexity of the situation(s). A friendly game where
we share perspectives and compare notes. I'm not very good
I just tend to post a lot. I've never won a FITE game.
that my game with Ian had gotten itself dropped from the
available games list. I guess Ian had some kind of severe
real life thing that came up and he's got higher priorities
to take care of right now. I guess I need another opponent
to volunteer to play FITE v.5.0, either side is okay with me.
I'm guessing I can do a move a day, maybe more depending on
the complexity of the situation(s). A friendly game where
we share perspectives and compare notes. I'm not very good
I just tend to post a lot. I've never won a FITE game.
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.