Entrench?

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:44 am

Maybe, I'm dense :p but the entrenching command doesn't make much sense. A unit can consume all its OPs then entrench. It's cost free, if I'm not mistaken. The following turn it can spring out of its sand-bagged state, tanned and fit, and resume moving and/or attacking. And that's cost free, as well. Thus, there seems to be no penalty for entering or exiting an entrenched state.

In that case, wouldn't every unit capable of entrenching do so at the end of every move? (Talk about micromanagement) Please tell me I'm wrong.

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:58 am

They would be neither tanned nor fit (sorry - couldn't help it )

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:15 am

Joe, you're gainsaying me again! Sheesh.

e_barkmann · Post by **e_barkmann** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:23 am

Peter, there are most definitely penalties for entrenching.

1. You burn a bullet (thus it's not free). Can be a critical move if you are out of supply at the beginning of your next turn and you only have 1 bullet when you entrench ...

2. You can only entrench in friendly held territory. So if you are planning on an aggressive move, be wary of where the front line is...I have been caught out a few times because I wasn't paying attention!

3. Not all units have entrenching capabilites, set by the scenario designer.

Cheers Chris

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:30 am

I see. But then every elegible unit that ends its turn in supply and inside friendly lines should auto-entrench. Since it recovers the spent bullet the following turn it makes zero sense not to.

e_barkmann · Post by **e_barkmann** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:35 am

But supply is re-determined at the beginning of each friendly turn.

Hence, a smart player will recognise situations where enemy units could be trapped out of supply with clever placement of interdiction and ZOC's.

There is a movement for an all-entrench button, but I feel it could lead to issues that aren't necessarily recognised until its too late!

Note that if you have more than one bullet up your sleeve before you entrench ...you have less to worry about

Cheers Chris

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:50 am

In most cases I would like to auto entrench.

But each turn, there might be a very small number of units where I don’t want to auto entrench. So the solution:

If you don’t want a unit to auto entrench click on that unit and give the order “do not auto entrench”

Then, when the player is about to complete the turn, the player has an option to press another button called “auto entrench”. Which entrenches all units except those ordered not to ( and of course those who cannot due to other factors).

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:32 am

IMHO, it would be better if units expended OPs instead of supplies to entrench. After all, what is the material cost of building a defensive line? We're talking about digging foxholes, throwing up some camouflage, siting guns, etc. Barbed wire and mines show up when the front line line has reamined static for awhile.

BrubakerII · Post by **BrubakerII** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:02 pm

Actually Peter this is a very good suggestion for by expending OP's a unit is essentially expending 'time' which is more realistic. Out of interest if you watch the computer turn closley you will notice that the very last thing it does is 'auto-entrench' any unit that it is logical (or viable) to.I tend to entrench all units at the end of a turn if possible unless I am feeling lazy. I am for an autoentrench button.

Brubaker

Henri · Post by **Henri** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:46 pm

Would not the easy solution be for units to auto-entrench if they are in friendly territory and NOT to if they are not in supply?

Or as suggested to have an auto-entrench button so one could turn it off for units that are at risk of not being in supply the next turn?

Or to be able to drag-select an area and then give the command to auto-entrench all the units within the selected area?

Doing it one by one is a bit much micro-management...

Henri

Huskalator · Post by **Huskalator** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:12 pm

From a micromanagement standpoint its really not a big deal for me. As the Germans I have so few units that it takes maybe a minute to check things over and as the Russians I am almost always fighting or using extended movement that it only becomes bothersome for a few turns..

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:48 pm

Originally posted by PeterF
IMHO, it would be better if units expended OPs instead of supplies to entrench. After all, what is the material cost of building a defensive line? We're talking about digging foxholes, throwing up some camouflage, siting guns, etc. Barbed wire and mines show up when the front line line has reamined static for awhile.

Absolutely better, although I wonder if thet can re-coded at this point.

The way it works in the field is units digging in actually gain Combat Power ( and fatigue ) at a slow but steady rate while losing mobility and cohesion.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:39 pm

Maybe, I'm dense but the entrenching command doesn't make much sense. A unit can consume all its OPs then entrench. It's cost free, if I'm not mistaken. The following turn it can spring out of its sand-bagged state, tanned and fit, and resume moving and/or attacking. And that's cost free, as well. Thus, there seems to be no penalty for entering or exiting an entrenched state.

Each unit can move and perform an action (attack, entrench, blow bridge, etc) on a given turn.

willgamer · Post by **willgamer** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:41 am

As a practical matter, when I'm otherwise ready to hit next turn, I revisit all my units with the Leave Unit (and get next one) button. This allows me to catch units I've overlooked, units that fought and still have a small remaining movement to use, units I was going to think about then forgot, etc... This also allows me to also entrench (if desired, see CM's previous post) with little extra effort.

So if most folks want an auto-entrench toggle so be it. However the way it is now is fine if you take the above approach.

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:40 pm

As it stands, KP models 'defense on the fly'. This should require units to expend labor but not supplies, I think. Deducting a bullet should be reserved for 'fortifying', IOW, building more elaborate defensive postions, with barbed wire, mines, ammo stockpiles, etc.

Chris Merchant posted:

2. You can only entrench in friendly held territory.

Why? Is this commonsensical? One assumes troops are capable of digging foxholes in either friendly or hostile zones.

Nickel · Post by **Nickel** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:15 am

I think auto- entrench would be an okay option. I would hope that manual entrenching remains available due to the bullet cost and supply issues. Don't want to go out of supply accidentally.

Gregor_SSG · Post by **Gregor_SSG** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:19 am

Originally posted by PeterF
Why? Is this commonsensical? One assumes troops are capable of digging foxholes in either friendly or hostile zones. [/B]

Troops are certainly capable of digging holes anywhere, but it takes time and organisation to it. In KP, when you occupy an enemy controlled hex, it becomes Contested. That is, your in the hex, but it's not totally yours yet. You haven't had time to consolidate, and there might still be pockets of enemy resistance.

When it's Contested, you can't entrench. At the start of your next turn, if the bad guys haven't got it back, it becomes yours, and you can entrench.

The practical result is that troops who have just conducted an attack cannot entrench, and are hence most vulnerable to an immediate counter-attack, which is how it should be.

Gregor

BrubakerII · Post by **BrubakerII** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:53 am

Thanks for the insight Gregor.

Brubaker

HerbMaine · Post by **HerbMaine** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:04 am

I personally liked the entrench rules from TAO2 better. It made you think a turn or two ahead in order to get a unit entrenched where you wanted it, and it only allowed infantry units to entrench. A "DR" result on an entrenched unit did not force it to retreat. An engineer unit could entrench and any unit stacked with it was also considered entrenched. I found those rules very interesting and effective. I like KP a lot, but I must say I am disappointed with the entrench rules.