Diplomacy bservations after a couple games

[skraft16]

Really good game! Obviously a lot of things are very abstracted, but that's fine. Even the AI plays fairly well. For the record, I didn't play earlier Strategic Command series games, so take this as you will

Diplomacy:

It definitely seems that the system is designed so that you can only get a maximum of 2 or 3 bumps in your relations with each individual country, no matter what you do. And you definitely don't need to make major investments to get the 4 historical German minor allies to join you.

For example, I have a game that is almost to the end of 1941, and in that game I decided to "Go for it!" to bring Turkey into the war on the Axis side. Starting in late 1939, I invested in 11 diplomatic chits with Turkey, and all this did was move Turkey about 6% in the Axis direction. I still have 10 diplomatic chits whirring away in Turkey in that game, which should mean that about every second turn I get them to inch in my direction. That ain't happening. Obviously each chit expires when it successfully hits its individual 5%/turn chance to influence the country it is spent on, but a couple of those chits still parked in the lobby of the Turkish Foreign Ministry have been around for 2 years/26 turns now, and others have been in place since early 1940, so about 20 turns. If it was just straight probability, by now more of the chits should have succeeded, disappeared and moved Turkey several % each into the Axis column.

I also learned in that game that you really only need to spend 1 diplomatic chit on each historical Axis minor to get them into your camp. I had to really economize on chits spent on Axis minors to pile them all into Turkey, and it didn't matter. I spent 1 chit on Romania, and it went from 65% aligned wit the Axis to joining the war right after I invaded Yugoslavia. I then declared on Greece, and Bulgaria and Hungary both stood on the sidelines--until I spent one diplo chit on each of them, and they joined the Axis within a couple months of that. The trigger for all the Balkan Axis minors seems to be "take out Yugoslavia and spend on one chit with them". Finland joined the Axis within a couple months of my invasion of the USSR, even though I had only spent on 2 chits with them, and they were at 16% aligned with the Axis about a month after I started my war with the USSR.

Now, obviously there have to be some limits on moving major powers towards the Axis. You don't want someone piling 10-12 chits into the US to keep it in perpetual neutrality. And I am entirely in favor of spending 2 or 3 chits on the U.S. under the current rules to keep them out of the war for an extra few months. (For the USSR, that spending depends on whether you are playing for time to concentrate on the UK or intend to go after Russia after France falls.) But it really seems that most of the diplomacy part of the game is extraneous. It doesn't look like you can move even a minor country into your camp, even if you spend a lot of resources on that country. It also doesn't look like you need to make any real effort to get the historical Axis minors into the war on your side, other than declaring war on Yugoslavia.

So what have your experiences with diplomacy been? I have only played a couple games, and both times I turned my armies on Yugoslavia right after the fall of France, even though they are 45% aligned wit the Axis. Has anyone been able to get Yugoslavia to join the Axis, or does it have its historical pro-Allied coup and join the Allies and force the Axis to take it out? What about Syria, which leans well towards the Axis? Spain is a little more favorable towards the Axis than Turkey is, has anyone had any luck bringing them into Axis?

[terje439]

The Axis minors will normally join you without the use of diplomacy chits. I have had them enter when a) Yugoslavia turned Allied, and b) a few turns after the USSR DoWed Germany.

I find as the Axis that I cannot really afford to buy alot of chits, as I have far more important things to spend the points on, so have not played around with it alot though, but placed a few chits in Spain and got two successive steps towards the Axis.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: skraft16


Diplomacy:


For example, I have a game that is almost to the end of 1941, and in that game I decided to "Go for it!" to bring Turkey into the war on the Axis side. Starting in late 1939, I invested in 11 diplomatic chits with Turkey, and all this did was move Turkey about 6% in the Axis direction. I still have 10 diplomatic chits whirring away in Turkey in that game, which should mean that about every second turn I get them to inch in my direction. That ain't happening. Obviously each chit expires when it successfully hits its individual 5%/turn chance to influence the country it is spent on, but a couple of those chits still parked in the lobby of the Turkish Foreign Ministry have been around for 2 years/26 turns now, and others have been in place since early 1940, so about 20 turns. If it was just straight probability, by now more of the chits should have succeeded, disappeared and moved Turkey several % each into the Axis column.

When you invest in diplomacy and your opponent invests the same amount it offsets. So if you invested 11 chits & your opponent 9 its worth 2 chits. Once your opponent see's a country mobilization move they generally assume thats your target and invest.

Personally I'm not a fan of major country diplomacy and don't think it should be part of the game. In PBEM it results in way to many "gamey" outcomes.

[Schokolokos]

Axis minors like Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania join you anyways on a set date, It has nothing to do with diplomacy.
You can try to force a minor to join Axis more fast if you use diplo, but usually its not worth, sometimes I used early diplo money on Hungary because you only need 1-2 hits.
I suggest you to use SC Editor and read the Event Scripts

[PvtBenjamin]

Diplomacy is usually focused on Spain, Sweden & Turkey.

Saudi Arabia has a big benefit to US.

Some strategies diplo Yugoslavia & Greece so not to attack.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Personally I'm not a fan of major country diplomacy and don't think it should be part of the game. In PBEM it results in way to many "gamey" outcomes.

Diplomacy against Majors isn't the same in World at War as it was in War in Europe. It is cheaper but the extent to which it will move the Major towards your side is now much less, just 4-8%.

So I don't think you'll see such outcomes in World at War as some have experienced with War in Europe.

My intention ultimately is to update War in Europe with the new settings.

[PvtBenjamin]

Happy Holidays Bill

Have the number of chits for major country diplo per country changed? In my opinion the most a side (axis/allies) should be able to invest is one. It just leads to very a-historical outcomes in PBEM and in my opinion greatly takes away from the game.

I would prefer the game has no major country diplo or at least the ability to start a game without it.

I rarely get push back when I request no major country diplo before a game starts and many prefer not having it.

Just one man's opinion.

[Xenocide]

Yeah, even pushing major country diplomacy it takes a long time to move a nation to war compared to the lucky roll mechanic in the previous title. With MPP priority from Britain, France, and China on the USA I got them to join the war in early '41 and it cost a fortune. In the European game I have managed to get the USA to join the war before France falls.

[BillRunacre]

The number of chits that can be invested into a Major hasn't been reduced. This could be done but I'd rather not do so until we've had a fair amount of feedback of diplomacy with the new model being tried out in game and found to be needing such a change.

[PvtBenjamin]

My suggestion is having an additional box to check "Major Country Diplomacy" like you now have for Diplomacy that way you could play either way.

[Mithrilotter]

Has something changed concerning Saudi Arabia? In the European Theater game, good Allied diplomacy on Saudi Arabia yields a beneficial convoy line. However, in WaW beta testing, I got nothing useful from good Allied diplomacy in Saudi Arabia.

[Xenocide]

Maybe it was figured to be excessive with the new Venezuela convoy?

[BillRunacre]

I recall a discussion where evidence was shown that it was only really after WWII that Saudi Arabia started exporting significant amounts of oil, and as Xenocide says, with other more historically important sources for the USA in the game, I haven't added a Saudi convoy script here as for it to generate any MPPs worthy of the diplomatic effort, it would have to be a far greater oil producer than it could likely have been at the time.

Getting it to join the Allies would still help US income and be of some strategic importance though.