Ammo replenishment?

[Lowlaner2012]

Hi

First let me say I am enjoying the game.... one question, is it possible to replenish say ATGM ammo on the battlefield?

And if not I would like to request it as a feature

Thanks

[CapnDarwin]

Are you talking on vehicles like the BMP and Bradley with one or two ready shots?

[Lowlaner2012]

Hi Capn, I was thinking more of ATGM teams...

Say there is a foot mobile Milan atgm team, they fire off there Milans, kill a few tanks and run out of ammo... is there any for that team to replenish there ammo?

Say return to a truck or vehicle in the rear and get more missiles?

Thanks

[varangy]

As of now, no.

For the future, it looks like they dont want to implement ammo replenishment, so chanes are slim.

[nikolas93TS]

We are still contemplating about that.

[Lowlaner2012]

It would be nice in bigger battles, obviously not unlimited ammo....

I generated a decent size battle last night, the Brits v the Soviets, I had 2 Milan teams in some woods, they fired off there missiles (some at the same targets), 1 team got killed by tank fire but the other team managed to retreat back into the woods.... I would have loved to re-armed them and sent them back into the fight....

Thinking about it, there are ways to save ammo, say having 1 team hold fire while the other team engages the Soviets, this would stop the 2 teams firing at the same tanks...

Overall its not an issue, usually when something fires and gives away there position, they either get hit by tank fire or get battered by artillery...

[CapnDarwin]

Part of the problem is map size and engagement time. To do any resupply or simple repairs, you need to be out of the shooting zone of combat. On larger maps where you might be able to have an area out of direct fire combat at or near the map edge. With some cover and a lull in fighting you could potentially have a platoon level out ammo loads.

For those ATGM teams, their transport would likely carry some extra rounds, but in the few cases I've seen, the teams are detached from any track.

You can only carry so much ammo and if the fight is bigger than you expected, you will have a bad day.

[Lowlaner2012]

Thanks for the replies, fair enough....

1 team had a bad day, they killed few tanks but got killed and the other team had a great day, they killed a few tanks and lived to tell the tale....

[mmacguinness]

TacOps had a very simple re-supply function.

In the Unit Orders box, there was a button for Supply. Click on that you get the supply status for the unit, the number of Supply points available and the cost to fully resupply the unit. Normally there were not too many supply points available for the scenario, so Player could choose the level of resupply and partially rather than fully resuply if he wanted to spread the joy.

As I recall, the developer said he did it like this in order to avoid cluttering the game with resupply vehiocles. Its an abstraction that I thought worked pretty well. There was never enough to resupply everyone.

[Blond_Knight]

Tacops was a nice game, but the fact that you couldn't build AI into scenarios was a real killer.

[wodin]

Like Combat Mission have supplied on APC and trucks.

[mmacguinness]

Blond Knight, agreed, the lack of AI for user scenarios was a big disadvantage. That said, the AI built into the game scenarios was often extremely challenging. The various AI personalities, cautious, aggressive, etc. ensured a good degree of unpredictability. I still play sometimes.
I first heard of AB on the TacOps forum years ago. AB has many features that TacOps lacked, elevations, formations, AI for user scenarios, etc. But TacOps also did a number of things extremely well, SOP's, unit Fire Control Orders, unit Target Priorities. They give a wider range of options and much more flexibility than the SOP in AB.
The developer, Maj Holdridge solved a lot of the issues people are asking for in AB. The Tacops Gazette file that came with the game provided comprehensive background information on why he made many of the game design choices.

[nikolas93TS]

ORIGINAL: mmacguinness

TacOps had a very simple re-supply function.

In the Unit Orders box, there was a button for Supply. Click on that you get the supply status for the unit, the number of Supply points available and the cost to fully resupply the unit. Normally there were not too many supply points available for the scenario, so Player could choose the level of resupply and partially rather than fully resuply if he wanted to spread the joy.

As I recall, the developer said he did it like this in order to avoid cluttering the game with resupply vehiocles. Its an abstraction that I thought worked pretty well. There was never enough to resupply everyone.

Actually, this is the best proposal I have heard until now. Quite an elegant solution.

Now, we should also teach AI to do the same. Albeit I doubt AI units survive that long as to benefit as much as player units would, so then it could be as simple as use the points to resupply the first units that runs out of ammo (which usually would be ATGM teams, and other support units).

[zacklaws]

I feel that in prepared defense, all units should be allowed to have an higher ammunition allocation as in real life and not just be limited to their daily allocation or basic load as it is now. An option to select a percentage increase of ammunition during setup would be workable. Attacking forces have more freedom of movement and may not be pinned down like defending forces so more opportunity for resupply vehicles to move forward to do so or units could fall back to a replen area marked by a circle or square on the map where they have a delay time of how long they spend there before being allowed back into the game fully rearmed. These marked areas could have an infinite amount of ammunition or so many points worth of ammunition. These replen areas could also be resupplied to top up the points allocation if they dwindle by supply vehicles moving forward and also having to spend a delay time in that area where the vehicle is unloaded into the ammunition dump unless it is a rolling replen then ammunition is deemed to be off loaded straight into units passing through the area but once again with a delay time. I know that when I was on BAOR exercises in Germany, you was through a rolling replen in minutes. Ammunition, fuel, water and food was just thrown at you and straight into trailers and backs of vehicles as you passed through and then you just drove away and sorted it out away from the area.

[mmacguinness]

Agreed. Question, in RL, has anyone ever gone into attack with just a basic load?
Videos of M2/M3's, M113s and M1s in Iraq in 2003 showed them with ammo stacked high everywhere. They also took ammo trucks on the thunder run into Baghdad.

Variable ammo allotments could add an interesting wrinkle to AB.

Soviets emphasised the main effort for breakthrough, so a main effort attack may have a priority "all you can carry" ammo allotment, while a diversionary attack a lower priority "lucky you're getting anything" load.
Similarly, the defenders, "hold at all costs, there's more when you need it" for a do but die defense, or "we got nothin', hold long as you can, then bug out" with maybe even less than the standard load.

On that point, the game scenarios have three levels of defense, hasty, prepared (dug-in) and fortified. But all have the same ammo.
Hasty may be "do what you can with what you have", but surely prepared and fortified defenses would always always have as much as could be made available?

I love the game, but thinking about it now, with the standard loads, every battle is diversionary "lucky you're getting anything" vs "we got nothin', hold long as you can, then bug out".
I think we need main effort "all you can carry" vs "hold at all costs, there's more when you need it". That would demand significantly higher attacker v defender ratios.

This brings up game balance issues. But sometimes victory is delaying the enemy for 45 minutes instead of 30

[returntoforever8]

Good discussion.... I like the idea of abstracted supply points.

[mmacguinness]

Agreed. Question, in RL, has anyone ever gone into attack with just a basic load?

Resupply has been a question, but is the more fundamental issue the very low level of ammunition initially allocated?

Zacklaws writes of ammunition being "thrown at you and straight into trailers and backs of vehicles".

In the middle of an article in the Russian newspaper VZGLYAD on Ukraine's ammunition shortages, I came across this quote from a Russian general.

“For small arms during active combat operations, five to six BCS (combat kit) are laid down per soldier per day. One BC contains 450 rounds of ammunition, which means that one soldier fires an average of 2,500 rounds per day. According to supply standards, each infantryman should have three BC's on hand and one more in reserve – this is both a wearable kit and one that is directly on armored vehicles or accompanying supply vehicles. The rest is brought up from the deeper rear….”
Lieutenant-General Anatoly Khrulev, a military expert, told VZGLYAD newspaper
https://vz.ru/society/2022/11/22/1187658.html
The article is in Russia, so use Google Translate

"three BC's on hand" at 450 rounds per BC means 1,350 rounds immediately available.

I think the basic load allocated in the DB should be several times the nominal basic load now used, which I believe is simply a supply accounting measure rather than an actual supply estimation of combat need.

[Perturabo]

Armored Brigade can have a 10 hour long battle on a 15x15km map.