Any delusion I have had about US air superiority are shattered

[dpabrams]

About to call bullshit on this. Apparently I was pumped full of propaganda as the Soviet Union has nothing to fear putting up their humble MiG-23's against the lowly F-15C and F-16. Opening scene of a recent fighter sweep where I send 4x F-15C, 2x F-4 E and 4x F-16 to meet 4- MiG 23ML's. The F-15C's and F-4's get the drop with the RADAR advantage and launch 10 Sparrows at 2 MiG's. The Mig's cannot dive to the deck as they are over land and we score 1- HIT. Folks that's 10% kill rate.............pathetic! The 3x MiG's close and before they lose a single remaining fighter, down a F-15C, 2x F-4's and a F-16. I am sorry but this is crap and I promptly exited the Sim.

It should be mentioned that EF-111A's were in support, although they didn't get the Jam on the MiG's. The US forces are set to veteran and the Soviets to normal awareness levels.

So far my impression is that Soviet fighters, AAM's and the AI are far superior to any aircraft and missile I employ against them. I always assumed that a F-15 would mop up a MiG 23 any day all things being equal.

So what gives?

[HalfLifeExpert]

For one thing, keep in mind that the US Air Force and Navy never actually clashed with Soviet pilots flying those aircraft, the only air to air engagements post-Vietnam were against Iraq, Libya, Serbia and.....I think that's it. I strongly suspect that if an actual clash happened, there would have been a serious fight with losses on both sides.

Those aircrew were never of the same caliber as the Soviet pilots, so that could be part of your 'delusion'. Also keep in mind that the astounding kill ratios of the 1991 Gulf War were one sided affairs, as the coalition A) whacked Iraqi command and control at the outset of the war and B) the US has serious advantage of AWACS aircraft orbiting outside of the combat zone.

I think someone else should try to explain the mechanics of modern air combat and the capabilities of those aircraft, so I'll leave my thoughts at that.

[Cik]

what final PK% are you getting on your sparrows, and what sparrows are they?

what mig-23s are you using?

what you're seeing might just be a conspiracy of dice. sure, it's wildly improbable that a 50% pk will roll miss a dozen times in a row, but i've seen it happen.

please provide more information about the exact platforms, ranges, missile types, weather conditions etc so that we can give you a definitive yay or nay. thanks.

[DWReese]

Many of the planes have missiles that can shoot at far distances. But, shooting at targets from the longest distance isn't always the best tactic. Usually, the further away that you are, the kill percentage diminishes. As you get closer, those go up. Plus, if you give a good a/c a longer time to maneuver, it will evade the missiles. Where is that point on the playing field that you should withhold fire, or release it? Each situation is different. Tactics against a lumbering bomber is going to be different than a5th generation fighter.

Using the WRA is a way to adjust these distances. You will have to play with them to find out what is best.

Doug

[SeaQueen]

How did you choose to employ your fighters and the Russian fighters? Tactics often drive the outcome more than technology.

[Paveiv]

As others mentioned, you were probably just extremely unlucky or there was something wrong with the mission setup. There have been situations when I was really surprised at the outcome but the results are usually consistent. I have just tried 2 F-4E from 1977 (oldest US ones I found in DB, heavy load) vs 4 soviet Mig-23ML (standard loadout) from 1981. Just one quick try. Starting aproximately 150 miles from each other with aaw patrol mission over Libya in the middle. Active radars on, engage any contact even without identification. Otherwise default. F-4s managed to shoot down two Migs with Sparrows without any retaliation, Migs were running at that time. I could have ordered the F-4s to escape but I left the situation to AI. One F-4 started to run (no idea why, still had one Sparrow and 4 Sidewinders), the other tried to merge but was shot down. So adding F-15s and F-16s to the mix, I can´t image the Migs doing any damage at all.

[dpabrams]

Man this is why I dig forums. The US Aircraft are F-4E Phantom II (1983) with AIM-7F Sparrow III and AIM-9J, F-16A (1981) with AIM-9L and the F-15C (1984) with AIM-7M Sparrow III and AIM-9M. Soviets are MiG-23ML (1983) with AA-7 Apex C (R-24R SARH), AA-7 Apex D (R-24T, IR) and AA-8 Aphid (R-60TM).

I have not toyed with WRA for release ranges, but I will now!

[StellarRat]

How far away were you? Most missiles should be employed at about half their max. range so they have maneuvering power. Also, why Sparrows? AMRAAM's are much better.

[dpabrams]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

How far away were you? Most missiles should be employed at about half their max. range so they have maneuvering power. Also, why Sparrows? AMRAAM's are much better.

AMRAAMs are not in the load out for these models and years. I am toying with the Sparrow III WRA. I have lowered to 45nm for starters.

[StellarRat]

Oh, I see your new post. AMRAAMs weren't available yet. Anyway, everything I've read about Sparrows says they aren't so hot against small aircraft aka fighters. My guess is you'll have much better luck with Sidewinders provided you can get in closer. Also, like I said, you need fire Sparrows and other missiles from much less than max. range for them to work well against maneuvering AC.

[dpabrams]

I'm telling you this is getting embarrassing. I just watched 2 MiG 23's shoot a combination of 8 missiles and down 2- F-15's and a F-4E, while the 3 US jets dodged and danced themselves to death they fired one sidewinder which missed. All the while 8 other F-15's, F4's and F-16's just watched from a distance and did not engage. At this point I feel I need to relearn the air game. All that money spent on these systems and we could have had MiG's. I think its time to run some tests or start playing as the Russians.

[Primarchx]

Sounds like someone needs to learn how to play the game. What Mission Types, WRAs and Doctrines were you using for the USAF? Also, if you're engaging with older F-15Cs (with AIM-7F), F-4Es (with AIM-7E2 or AIM-7F) and non-ADF F-16As (limited to AIM-9s), then yeah, those MiG-23s can be dangerous.

[dpabrams]

Weapon: AIM-7M Sparrow III #16160 is running blind for more than 5 sec... self-destructing. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. To the lab we go.

[StellarRat]

You must be doing something wrong with your orders. Are you above the targets? That's bad. Second, the Sparrow M only has a range of 38 nm. Try a release range of 20nm or less. Also, the Sparrow is not a good dogfighting missile because the firing plane has to achieve and maintain a radar lock on the target until impact. That's really hard to do if they have to maneuver to avoid getting hit themselves (radar gimbal limits, etc...) If enemy is approaching you head-on you'll get one salvo off then you'll have to go to Sidewinders and guns in all likelihood or just hit the afterburners and run past them for another try later. Check to make sure you are allowing your AC to go to active radar before they fire. A lock-on takes some time.

[Primarchx]

Sparrow Ms are good missiles - head and shoulders over the earlier models, but you need to keep your aircraft's radars on their targets (SARH). You may want to turn the Map Settings->Illumination Vectors to ALL to check that your radar is actually illuminating, too.

Try this - when you fire your Sparrows go ahead and manually set the shooting aircraft's altitude to 12k feet and make sure they keep pointed toward the target. When a hostile aircraft is fired upon standard behavior is for them to dive to the deck. If your firing aircraft is 36k feet overhead they might drop out of its' illumination cone - even though you're pointing at it on the X/Y axis it drops out on the Z. Going to 12k makes sure the enemy won't drop below the horizon and give a better chance of keeping it in the illumination cone.

[dpabrams]

Test One in the dessert, meeting engagement:

2x F-4E Phantom II, with AIM-7F Sparrow III and AIM-9J Sidewinder verses MiG-23MLD Flogger K with AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR], AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH] and AA-8 Aphid

I'll take the MiG's folks!

SIDE: BLUEFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x F-4E Phantom II


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
8x AIM-7F Sparrow III
1x AIM-9J Sidewinder
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]



SIDE: OPFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x MiG-23MLD Flogger K


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
3x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
3x AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR]
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
6x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

[Primarchx]

Mmmm, dessert meeting engagements. Yummy!

[dpabrams]

User error? Perhaps, when the F-4's patrol towards the MiG's at 12K what a difference:

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x AIM-7F Sparrow III

SIDE: OPFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x MiG-23ML Flogger G

[Primarchx]

Here's what I got with a quick test (micromanaging Phantoms)...

SIDE: Blue
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
7x AIM-7F Sparrow III
1x AIM-9J Sidewinder



SIDE: Red
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x MiG-23MLD Flogger K


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

******

Missed a LOT of AIM-7F shots (not surprising). My first missiles got the Blind error as they were out turned by the target (which was notching as it descended). Odds are good that the Phantom's radar was maintaining illumination but that the Sparrow's seeker couldn't pick it up because the target was turning harder than it could follow. Follow on shots did not have this issue (since the target was already perpendicular it didn't turn as much when the missile approached) but missed a lot because they're crappy and either missed their Ph or were spoofed by chaff. Had to finish the second fighter with a rear-aspect AIM-9J.

[StellarRat]

dpabrams - What were the altitudes for both sides in the previous engagements/tests?