The sequel of the legendary wargame with a complete graphics and interface overhaul, major new gameplay and design features such as full naval combat modelling, improved supply handling, numerous increases to scenario parameters to better support large scenarios, and integrated PBEM++.
The 16 MPs cost is because of 6 rounds were burned in that hex when executing battles.
As you can see in Move 2 there was just one unit when executing battle. I have clicked too fast and the Red Geeman unit moved before screenshot. Still it paid 16MPs to enter the hex.
In this particular case it's not the weight.
Well the BTS worked as intended but the example shows it can be (with careful planning) "ignored". I mean I was able to destroy an enemy unit paying no extra cost AFTER it already was in a late battle. This is where the BTS system fails. And I quickly checked 2 other scenarios: Normandy'44 and Kharkov'43. Same thing. If you do it properly you will be able to repeat the abive. Maybe it's the mediana on battles execution that is causing this.
Thanks for the weight system explanation. I think THIS thread could be very helpful for FITE2 gamers and new players
Move 1 you moved a unit 16 hexes to rbc the Soviet unit. I did the same thing and was able to produce a rbc. The bts marker is put in the hex previously occupied by the Soviet unit. That bts marker represents that 16 hex move and the rbc that took place. So any unit entering that hex will be charged the time it took for that 16 hex move and the rbc that occurred. Are you saying that you were unable to produce a rbc and instead moved a unit 16 hexes and burned up 6 rounds to conduct a regular battle????? That would be extremely poor planning. [:)]
Personally I don't like this scenario because of the extreme measures taken to produce a 'historic' result. Things like this:
Axis Zoc cost:,0 for 3 turns then 50% of normal until turn 12, then 75% until Rasputitza
Axis movement bias: 150% at turn 1, then 125% at turn 2, returning to normal on turn 3.
And this:
The turn 18 Shock bonus will in TOAW4 have a movement bias of 90% for the Germans (A 10% reduction in movement points), as the Panzers run out of fuel, and need rest and refit. The penalty last for 1 turn and will appear with 1-2 turns delay, like the supply penalty.
The turn 24 Shock bonus will in TOAW4 have a movement bias of 50% for the Germans, as the Panzers run out of fuel, and need rest and refit. The penalty last for 1 turn and will appear with 1-2 turns delay, like the supply penalty.
Make me crazy. If I recall correctly the Germans paused not because of supply but because Hitler told them to. Regardless of how you conduct the campaign these things happen. The Soviet player shouldn't even get to touch the first echelon of non mech corps combat units the first turn since they could only react according to sealed orders and not orders from higher up because they had no communications. The PO should move them and only toward the west to their pre assigned areas.
But those are personal thoughts and it isn't my scenario. [;)]
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)
If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
Are you saying that you were unable to produce a rbc and instead moved a unit 16 hexes and burned up 6 rounds to conduct a regular battle????? That would be extremely poor planning.
Lobster, seriously why the ad personam comments?
It was as explained and intended move to show that the BTS are flawed. I moved a unit 16 hexes (which takes time) had a battle (which ended in 6 round) and then attacked and killed the same unit in round 1 with another German unit at zero penalty.
It's just an exploit. Call it a cheat. Every game has it's exploits, none is perfect
@Lobster
My point is that the Battle Stamps system is not consistent. There are always some rules that are far from perfect.
The below picture shows (what is in my opinion) big issue/flaw of the Battle Stamps system. It can be easily exploited.
So what I did:
Step 1: I took some deep unit to attack a Soviet front unit and to avoid spending the 6 rounds I made 3 one-rounded attacks. The result of course being 1 round burn (Move 2).
Step 2: I checked the costs of entering the hexes. The one where the Soviet was requires 16 MPs but the adjacent one just 2 MPs (Move 3 and Move 4).
Step 3: I moved the German unit to finish the poor Soviet unit (Move 5) disregarding penalty cost associated with the battle that took place later on.
In my opinion this is an example of earlier moving unit attacking enemy unit which that only was there much later in the turn. And this is what I mean it is not logical. Trust me guys I have learned some tricks with FITE2 on Battle Stamps. It just requires twice the time than normal but you can quite easily exploit the engines with this. In effect You can "ignore" the costs associated with battles freeing the front units by assaulting with later arriving units.
OK. This was discussed in that article I referenced.
Yes, the BTS doesn't account for the ZOCs of the defenders in the BTS hex. But note that you have to have two empty hexes between defenders for this to be an issue. And all that is missing is the ZOC cost - usually a small cost. Try and imagine how difficult this would be for the game to account for. It's too small an issue to be worth the effort.
Bob, the Soviets have no ZOC at all. I'm not really sure what he is trying to prove with this.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)
If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
If you are trying to say the bts should cover the once extent ZOC of the retreated Soviet unit (if it actually had one) then yes, that is correct. A cost should be paid but the programming time would most certainly be extensive don't you agree? So many possibilities to be covered. Probably should have used a scenario where the Soviets actually have a ZOC. Progress is sometimes in small measures. Given the small dev team I would say they've done a sterling job. Having had this game from initial release it has come a very long way.
Personally I would rather the time be spent on hex side rivers, doing away with the current way surrounded units are handled and inserting something more logical and fixing the scenario editor, not necessarily in that order.
Oh and scaled ZOC for unit size.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)
If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Yes, the BTS doesn't account for the ZOCs of the defenders in the BTS hex. But note that you have to have two empty hexes between defenders for this to be an issue. And all that is missing is the ZOC cost - usually a small cost. Try and imagine how difficult this would be for the game to account for. It's too small an issue to be worth the effort.
Bob, the Soviets have no ZOC at all. I'm not really sure what he is trying to prove with this.
Regardless, this is an issue with the BTS. He's way over-blowing it, of course.
In the first five days, Guderian's 2d Panzer Group and Hoth's 3d Panzer Group advanced 280 miles to surround Minsk.
Has anyone been able to achieve such results by the end of T2?
My best so far was barely 180 miles
Guys I think you are missing the point.
It just an exploit like in any other game. You can kill unit and create a corridor with no (or very small penalties) even if the initial battle was expensive (and late). Let's just stop this as I will defo use it to exploit. So no need to dwell on it.
I would love to have scaled ZOCs and more options for engineers like building bridges and airfields.
It's not nearly as bad as using HQ and artillery units as rear guards, using MPs as mobile exploitation troops, using highly mobile AA units as exploitation troops, the list goes on and on. What's your point? [;)]
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)
If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
In the first five days, Guderian's 2d Panzer Group and Hoth's 3d Panzer Group advanced 280 miles to surround Minsk.
Has anyone been able to achieve such results by the end of T2?
My best so far was barely 180 miles
Comes fairly close but then the Soviets are not obliged to move their units towards the frontier as they did historically so that presents a problem when trying to achieve historic results.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)
If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
So you presented actually one of best gameplay and it shows that the best achievements in 7 days is falling more than 100km on historical results (and that is if you count recon units as the whole Corp).
Actually if a Russian player would move units towards Germans blocking the chokeholds then the advance would be hampered even more. I've tested it. Blown bridges and stacks on 3 main approaches make it impossible for Geemans to get anywhere close to historical. It's when the Soviet player does not move you can achieve best results (or if Soviets move out to someplace else e.g. Dvina river).
I'm defending forward in my game of FITE2 with Patrick and he reports to me
that his progress is definately hindered. I'm not sure defending forward is
a good idea or not but so far it's working. It's all documented in the AAR
for our battle.
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Maybe start reading the whole thing. I said that from my experience Soviets not moving towards Germans are better for the Germans. This quite the opposite of your claim.
Unless you meant Soviets do not have to counterattack. Then yes, not having to counterattack is a problem for the Germans.
I think the lack of communication in Soviet Army is not well programmed in FITE2 (it's hard to code it). Cause that was causing the havoc in first days of the Barbarossa.
